Goaltender Carter Hart is one of five players who were members of the 2018 Hockey Canada Junior team that were criminally charged for sexual assault. The players were all found not guilty but the NHL determined that the players’ “conduct at issue falls woefully short of the standards and values that the League and its Member Clubs expect and demand.” Thus, the NHL issued league-imposed discipline which forbids each player from signing before October 15th and playing prior to December 1st.
Multiple reporters, including The Athletic’s Chris Johnston and The Fourth Period’s David Pagnotta, have indicated that the Golden Knights are interested and appear to be the front runners to sign Hart.
Recently, a reporter from The Athletic was asked to leave City National Arena in connection to questions regarding Hart.
The VGK fan base is split regarding Hart potentially becoming a member of their favorite team. Many fans point to the acquittal and believe he deserves another chance, while others point to the importance of character in the organization and plead for the team to stay away.
We ran a poll on Twitter as well as gathered comments from our Facebook page and Discord server to get a better sense of where the fan base stands regarding this extremely hot button issue. Here’s a snippet of what we found…
@MacquelHill on Twitter
Acquitted doesn’t mean innocent. This team has always been known for wanting people of good character. I think nothing says the complete opposite of that than the men that were on trial. Our team is better than that.
ats05 in Discord
Fans’ kids, and daughters especially, are growing up loving VGK hockey and with VGK players as their heroes. It’s vital that the org remain a character organization, and one with transparency and documented activities supporting the community. When giving a chance to players with questionable character this NEEDS to include transparent, documented, and publically updated information about steps and participation.
@mundyc3 on Twitter
It is really tough, especially not knowing much about the case or the Canadian judicial system. He has been out of the league for two years. I’ll trust the team’s judgement. Tark was famous for giving guys second chances. Knights have proved to be similar with Uchacz and Connelly
James Scouten on Facebook
When this team started, the man at the very top, the creator himself, Foley, talked about the type of people that were going to play for this organization. The community of Las Vegas rallied around that rhetoric. While Hart himself was acquitted of any crimes, the facts remain that he proved himself to not be the type of person this organization sought just under a decade ago.
I wouldnt stop cheering for this team, but I would be truly disappointed in the choices of the front office. A small part of me would hope to see him play just poorly enough to be sent packing quickly
Dan Mattila on Facebook
Anything they can do to make team better and win cups is ok with me!
@wndasmaximoff on Twitter
I would be so deeply disgusted if this happened. as a girl who adores hockey, its would be so scary to see a guy like that on my team. he’s not even a great goalie so theres no reason to tank the teams public reputation and make people hate us even more
@cellisdavid on Twitter
Vegas doesn’t need the drama, bad press and bad optics. Sure he was acquitted but professional hockey is a privilege to play, especially in Vegas.
@Lowhanginlogan on Twitter
I want my team to win hockey games, if he helps them do that, sign him. This is entertainment, we’re not interviewing him to babysit our kids or become our friend. Acknowledging he did something awful, while also still supporting the team as a whole, are not mutually exclusive.
Jaymi Anne on Facebook
Stop judging people for past mistakes… (btw he was acquitted) and many of you were not even hockey fans when then incident occurred…. He is great goalie and worth taking a shot on.
@vegasmisfits on Twitter
Not Guilty… Move along… let the man earn a paycheck
Austin Hopper on Facebook
Not going to comment on the case itself, but as a team, if you had the option to not do something controversial, especially when that option doesn’t really feel like it does anything for us, it seems like it’d be better to just not do the controversial thing.
@VgkNak on Twitter
Brett Howden was traumatized to the point of tears when he had to testify on the stand for the trial, and the Front Office wants him to have to practice every day with Carter Hart and still hold himself together at a high NHL level all season?
Chris Boyle on Facebook
The rest of the league already hates us. Let’s go all in. Sign all 5 guys.
rollduptrips in Discord
The VGK have claimed time and time again that character is everything when it comes to recruitment and the city has fallen in love with the team and its’ players. This is a chance for management to prove it. Don’t sign Carter Hart.
Donald Emery Nault III on Facebook
If he can play and is better than other goalies in the team then yes
@vgk2018 on Twitter
He was acquitted and I think he is better than our current back up. We gave a second chance/took a chance on Connelly so I am fine with Carter too.
@TakeYourNick on Twitter
Not Guilty ≠ Innocent, especially with how chaotic the trial was, multiple jury dismissals and the not guilty coming from the judge alone. Playing in the NHL is a privilege and I haven’t seen anything from any of the five that shows they have re-earned that privilege.
@Laurenrupert4 on Twitter
He was found not guilty, so why should his career have to be over. He deserves a second chance
Jake
I would need to see a clear and accurate picture, and background check of every member of the press who is critical to help me make my decision.
I guess if such things were revealed, this wouldn’t be a news story.
“Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.”
If Bill Clinton and Donald Trump were elected president, well, there you go.
His current “character” would be the telling issue, let’s let the locker room make a decision.
ThG
You left out the lying Kenyan, worse than two you noted.
Pistol Pete
OT:
No discussion is intelligent and fair without considering both the pros and cons. Viewed OBJECTIVELY there are always both (Pistol Pete).
It is not possible to give a definitive “yes” or “no” answer, as opinions on Barack Obama’s presidency are polarized along partisan lines. While he left office with strong approval ratings and is generally regarded positively by the public and many historians, there is still significant debate over the success of his tenure.
Public opinion and favorable ratings:
High favorable ratings: Since leaving office, Obama has consistently maintained high favorable ratings with the American public. A Gallup poll from January 2025 showed he had the highest favorability among living presidents.
Solid final approval rating: He left office with an approval rating near 60%, one of the highest final ratings for a modern president.
Significant partisan divide: Public perception of Obama is sharply divided by party. In his final weeks, 88% of Democrats approved of his job performance, compared to just 15% of Republicans. This deep partisan split is characteristic of modern presidential approval.
Historians’ and scholars’ views: Ranked in the top half: In a 2024 survey of nearly 200 presidential scholars, Obama was ranked as the 7th-greatest president in U.S. history. This places him in the top tier and reflects a positive view among academic historians.
Comparison to modern presidents: In the 2024 scholars’ survey, Obama ranked higher than Bill Clinton (#12), Ronald Reagan (#16), George H.W. Bush (#19), George W. Bush (#32), and Donald Trump (#45).
“Effective policymaker, weak party leader”: A common scholarly assessment is that Obama was an effective policymaker but less successful as a party leader. During his presidency,
Democrats lost more than 1,000 seats in state and federal elections.
Key achievements and successes: Economic recovery: He took office during the 2008 financial crisis and oversaw a massive stimulus package, the bailout of the auto industry, and a sustained economic recovery.
Affordable Care Act (ACA): The ACA, a significant healthcare reform, expanded health insurance coverage to millions of Americans. It was a major legislative accomplishment, though it remains politically contentious.
Foreign policy: Major foreign policy achievements include the killing of Osama bin Laden, the Iran Nuclear Deal, and the Paris Climate Accord.
Social issues: He oversaw the repeal of the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy, allowing openly gay Americans to serve in the military.
Charisma and communication: Many supporters viewed him as a charismatic and persuasive speaker who projected a sense of calm and intelligence.
Major criticisms and perceived failures
Political polarization: While some blame Republican obstructionism, Obama’s presidency was highly polarizing. He ultimately did not succeed in uniting the country as he had promised.
Use of executive power: Some critics accuse Obama of expanding the “imperial presidency” by using executive orders on issues like immigration (DACA) and healthcare to sidestep Congress.
Domestic surveillance: Revelations regarding the National Security Agency’s surveillance programs drew sharp criticism from civil libertarians.
Opioid crisis: Some believe his administration did not do enough to address the rising opioid epidemic, failing to properly regulate the industry.
Weak party management: Despite his own re-election, critics point to the severe losses the Democratic Party suffered at the state and federal level during his eight years in office.
Pistol Pete
OT:
A determination of whether Donald Trump has been a “good” president is a complex matter, with no single, universally agreed-upon answer. Assessments are sharply divided along partisan and ideological lines, often prioritizing different criteria such as economic performance, foreign policy, and democratic norms. An evaluation of his presidency, including both his first term and the early months of his second, must consider differing viewpoints across several key areas.
The economy: During his first term, Trump’s administration oversaw a period of sustained economic growth and low unemployment before the COVID-19 pandemic. However, there is disagreement over whether this growth was a continuation of trends inherited from the previous administration or a direct result of his policies.
Positive aspects: Before the pandemic, the economy saw low unemployment rates, including record lows for Black and Hispanic Americans, and rising household incomes.
The 2017 tax cuts reduced corporate and individual income taxes, which supporters credit with stimulating the economy and encouraging business investment.
Deregulation efforts, particularly in the energy sector, were touted as driving economic growth and achieving energy independence.
Criticisms: Some economists argue that the long-term effects of the tax cuts, including an increase in the national debt, could be detrimental.
Trade wars initiated with countries like China, Canada, and Mexico led to retaliatory tariffs, which opponents argue harmed consumers, farmers, and U.S. businesses.
Recent economic polling in 2025 indicates that many Americans feel financially insecure and blame Trump for the cost of living.
Domestic policy: Trump’s domestic agenda focused on immigration, judicial appointments, and deregulation, but it also drew significant criticism for its perceived undermining of democratic institutions and civil rights.
Positive aspects: He appointed over 250 federal judges, including three Supreme Court justices, which was a major priority for many conservative voters.
His administration implemented criminal justice reform through the First Step Act, which received bipartisan support.
In his second term, the administration has taken strong action on immigration, with some supporters citing low illegal border crossings.
Criticisms: His immigration policies, such as the “zero tolerance” policy that led to family separations and restrictions on asylum, were widely condemned by human rights groups.
He is accused of undermining the rule of law and federal institutions, with actions like targeting federal workers and agencies drawing significant criticism.
Critics argue his policies have negatively impacted human and civil rights, including women’s rights and LGBTQIA+ rights.
Foreign policy: Trump’s “America First” foreign policy shifted from multilateralism towards a more transactional and nationalistic approach.
Positive aspects: He brokered the Abraham Accords, which normalized relations between Israel and several Arab nations.
He pressured NATO allies to increase their defense spending, arguing for greater burden-sharing.
His administration is credited by supporters with standing up to China on trade and intellectual property theft.
Criticisms:Critics argue his policies alienated traditional allies and undermined international institutions, such as withdrawing from the Paris Climate Agreement and the Iran Nuclear Deal.
His approach is described as isolationist and unpredictable, leading to a decline in global opinion of the United States.
Some foreign policy experts say his focus on “hard power” over diplomacy has diminished American global influence.
Public perception: Public opinion of Trump remains deeply polarized, with little crossover in approval or disapproval.
Support: His support base, particularly within the Republican party, remains largely steadfast, with high approval ratings among Republicans.
Supporters often point to his economic record and his fulfillment of campaign promises on issues like immigration and judicial appointments as evidence of a successful presidency.
Opposition: His approval ratings have remained consistently low among Democrats and independents.
In 2025, public opinion polls show that many Americans are concerned about the cost of living and the overall direction of the country under his leadership.
Critics point to his rhetoric and actions as divisive and harmful to democratic norms and institutions.
ThG
as usual you miss the entire point regarding the lying KENYAN.
typical brain obsessed lib tard behavior, mentally blocked, brain washed, cult member of the left.
Pistol Pete
I have not spent a lot of time here of late but there remains one constant: you the resident retard.
ThG
Still can’t respond with anything remotely approaching what Inposted and you resort to insults, even Hank kimball would be shaking his head
ThG
Still can’t respond with anything remotely approaching what I posted and you resort to insults, even Hank kimball would be shaking his head
Pistol Pete
OT:
“as usual you miss the entire point regarding the lying Kenyan”
I ask the board what is the one single trait shared by ALL fascists? Hate of the left. Not simply disagree with the views but HATE. Fascists also hate blacks, Jews, Muslims and any person who does not conform to their racial standard. Note the Kenyan remark. This poster does not merely not agree with the views of Barack Obama he hates him and the left as any true fascist does.
“typical brain obsessed lib tard behavior, mentally blocked, brain washed, cult member of the left.”
HATE of “the left”. A true fascist.
ThG
the left are the facists now , moron.
Pistol Pete
You are confusing Nazi fascists opposing communists and socialists considered left in the context of the time. Fascists have always been extreme right. Get with it Einstein. In any case you do hate the left and I do mean HATE as with venom.
“Historians and political scientists overwhelmingly agree that fascism is a far-right ideology. This classification is not a recent development, but rather reflects the core tenets of the ideology that emerged in the 20th century.”
ThG
as usual you have no idea what you are talking about.
Minnesota Mild
Send them all to minnesota. We love pieces of shit.
Emmanuel
Im neutral on his signing. G’s are like Big Macs, theyre all the same.
Im more concerned about the reporter being asked to leave for doing his job,
it an act of weakness & fear of dissent.
ThG
There s only one member of ahletic and I would not ask him to le@ve.
Frank
Goalies are all the same, unless your team has a crappy one. To win the cup, you need solid goaltending. PERIOD.
Tim
Carter Hart was the #1 goalie in his class do kids get an inflated ego you bet but has he grown up that’s the question. I believe in second chances so put me in the Yeah column.
23skidoo
Facebook??????
The only poll that matters would be in the Vgk locker room.
ThG
VGK Training Camp is down to 31 players Here’s who remains in camp:
FORWARDS (18): Ivan Barbashev, Pavel Dorofeyev, Jack Eichel, Tomas Hertl, Alexander Holtz, Brett Howden, William Karlsson, Keegan Kolesar, Tanner Laczynski, Raphael Lavoie, Mitch Marner, Cole Reinhardt, Jonas Rondbjerg, Brandon Saad, Cole Schwindt, Colton Sissons, Reilly Smith, Mark Stone
DEFENSEMEN (10): Dylan Coghlan, Lukas Cormier, Noah Hanifin, Ben Hutton, Kaedan Korczak, Jeremy Lauzon, Brayden McNabb, Jaycob Megna, Shea Theodore, Zach Whitecloud
GOALTENDERS (3): Adin Hill, Carl Lindbom, Akira Schmid
Players released from camp today:
Braeden Bowman, Jakub Brabenec, Mathieu Cataford, Artur Cholach, Jeremy Davies, Jakub Demek, Joe Fleming, Jackson Hallum, Ben Hemmerling, Brandon Hickey, Lucas Johansen, Viliam Kmec, Samuel Mayer, Riley McKay, Mitch McLain, Devon Paliani, Matyas Sapovaliv, Christoffer Sedoff, Sloan Stanick, Trent Swick, Kai Uchacz, Tuomas Uronen, Jesper Vikman, Kevin Wall, Cameron Whitehead.
Emmanuel
Thx
ThG
another in long line of rogue judges over turned, Trump is winning at rate of well over 98%. Lib tards heads are exploding, they caused this mess in first place. Never seen so many rogue judges coming out of wood work. It’s all planned by dem party. They own the fake news media and the judges. Real Americans see what is going on, they are not buying this bull shit.
https://wltreport.com/2025/09/27/breaking-supreme-court-grants-president-trump-another-big/?utm_source=newsletter_randy&utm_referrer=tinyemail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=9-27%20Evening
ThG
my town
Pistol Pete
I’ll leave the Carter Hart call up to McCrimmon, McPhee and Foley. As always there are pros and cons. Always superior to objectively consider the pros and cons, be willing to cross the aisle, rather than get locked into a bias.
Pistol Pete
No doubt in my mind that Cassidy thinks as I do: Marner will enhance Eichel’s goal scoring. I also think Marner could score more with Eichel than in Toronto due to Eichel’s playmaking. It’s important the Eichel line scores and it will more with Marner than with Stone. Besides, the two lines below Eichel should each stand on their own when it comes to scoring.
Saad-Hertl-Dorofeyev
Smith-Karlsson-Stone
Let’s hope for overall good health.
ThG
that is an inconsiderate shot against Austin Matthews and Taveres.
Another baseless comment.
Pistol Pete
I did not say Marner did not score as the result of playmaking from teammates in Toronto I was merely surmising Marner COULD score more here skating with Eichel. Don’t make fake claims about my posts. Think more carefully before you speak.
ThG
you are saying that marner could score more without mathews and taveres, that is given. Stop marginalizing your bull shit.
Pistol Pete
A VGK fan would have to be pretty dumb to really believe it could not happen. Being the fake fan jack off you are you don’t want it to.
ThG
Still taking pot shots at Toronto players, your spin out is duly noted.
ThG
The problem with sal cap is that you have too many whiny owners, if NHL set a qualification on owners and ability to maintain a team with their buying power. Then there would be no need for sal cap. After all, Vegas is a small market town, yet the owner has big pockets. >>>>puts to shame all other positions who say otherwise.
In regard to “dynasty” the definition has changed. With 32 teams in nearly every major sport, compared to NHL which had what? Six teams in 1960s, and MLB which had a smaller amount. 16 ? In 60s. It was easier to have a dynasty back then. Now a dynasty would be considered if team consistently comes in as winner of their division, and repeatedly make the playoffs. One team made playoffs like 19 times ? That would be considered a dynasty by modern day terms. Not winning three in a row. That is nearly impossible with number of teams.
Pistol Pete
Futile attempt to walk back your recently stated anti-cap position. One would have to be pretty foolish to think it could be done another way given today’s salaries. I don’t know maybe some here buy your foolishness. Not many I assume.
ThG
Not walk back, additional fuel.
Pistol Pete
Anti-cap = dumb
Fascist mentality.
ThG
more spin by idiot talking out of smelly keyster, doesn’t even know the definition of fascist. What a fucking sicko.
ThG
some posters here just regurgitate AI chat bots misinformation. AI is no more than GARBAGE in and GARBAGE out. There is no filter on what idiots post on internet, many fake news, and liars (liberals make up 90% of this group). Like “trump said to inject Bleach”. Well trump never said that at all, yet AI chat bots keep picking it up. AI is garbage in. I should know, I was on on team which invented it back in late 80s and early 90s. AI is nothing new, it’s been around for decades.
Pistol Pete
OT:
Never said it? Fake news from AI chat bots?
“Like “trump said to inject Bleach”. Well trump never said that at all, yet AI chat bots keep picking it up”
https://youtu.be/zicGxU5MfwE?si=X7IuFuO__woII3Wu
All I can say is one has to be pretty poorly read to read any analysis (AI or other) and not be able to form their own opinion on what is fact and what is not.
ThG
all I can say is based upon historical flip floppery, “what is fact or what is not”, is pretty clear “what is not” category. Mr. Kimball.
Pistol Pete
OT:
“is pretty clear “what is not” category”
in this case the “what is not fact” is the You Tube record of Trump referencing injecting disinfectant is an AI fake video? It is not. He said what you claimed he did not,
there Einstein.
“Like “trump said to inject Bleach”. Well trump never said that at all, yet AI chat bots keep picking it up”
ThG
Methanol is disinfectant in Vic s vapor rub and people inject it everyday by breathing it, and it is not bleach moron. Your spin out completely decimated. And people what do you think people with asthma do? The fake media clowns did not think this one out. And you feeble minded left tards fell for it, every time,
Pistol Pete
https://youtu.be/lFKQGGf1iiI?si=seFLoq16dLB-V5nb
Dishonest conniving fuck that you are you will continue to try and walk back your claim that Trump suggesting injecting disinfectant was a fake chat bot creation. Ok he said “disinfectant” but he was cueing off Bryan whose remarks referencing bleach immediately preceded his.
https://youtu.be/E94pqy2rB7g?si=pBUpAkXxC5ilYgMG
Pistol Pete
Conniving fuck that you are will be continue to try and walk back your dishonest claim that Trump suggesting injecting disinfectant is a fake chat bot creation. Ok it was Bryan that referenced bleach as a disinfectant but Trump was cueing directly off it.
https://youtu.be/E94pqy2rB7g?si=pBUpAkXxC5ilYgMG
ThG
what part of fake news saying TRUMP called it “Injecting bleach” when he never used the word BLEACH in first place is not CLEAR to your menial midget sized mental brain ?
Pistol Pete
Of course Cormier is on waivers. Sedoff and Kmec both of whom I put above Cormier as #1 call up are waivers exempt.
Pistol Pete
Cormier cleared waivers. There is at least one, probably just one dead head poster who ranked him ahead of Sedoff and Kmec. Yawn.
Pistol Pete
Seems certain Coghlan and Megna will be placed on waivers unless Cassidy prefers one over Hutton.
ThG
He is on waivers because he ran out of options, doh, wake up. This is his last year to show something due to seniority and injuries. He may go the Coghlan route. At least he can be called up now and not worry about being claimed. The others need more time to develop. That is not saying that they won t pass him some day in future if they continue to show promise.
Pistol Pete
He’d probably prefer to have been claimed by a team where he could have a better chance of being deployed. In case you did not notice it’s hard to crack the lineup here Einstein.
ThG
in case you haven’t noticed VGK has more injuries than a M*A*S*H unit, and NHL has injuries. The silly change in CAP rules have done them no favors , as most idiot fans seem to think VGK took unfair advantage of rules which offered no such thing. As other teams in past have done same thing. So SAL CAP furthering hate against an NHL team is yet another reason to get rid of socialist bull shit Bettman contrived rule. Get owners who can pay for players, stop penalizing teams who do well.
Since no one claimed it, it will be harder trading him, only thing we can do is see what happens to coghlin , Hutton, and few more D men which have more years under them. Henderson could use pump up in depth based upon their very poor season last year.
Larry
I don’t have a definitive opinion on Hart, he was very good on a bad team , but 2 years have passed and it’s possible his mental and physical skills have atrophied and goaltending is largely a mental issue.
Look what happened to Malcolm Subban, his first year was outstanding and then he got hurt and progressively, actually, no suddenly, became a sieve and liability in the net.
I have stated my concern for our goalie situation, whether Hill can start at least 50 games and Schmid being capable of effectively playing the other 32, having said that, in the very short sample size he has played he has looked really good, swallows pucks up really well and rebounds have been barely noticeable, of course Lehner was like that in his first few games as well and we all know how turned out.. groan!
Pistol Pete
Of the six forwards still on the roster vying for a prospective 13th forward spot, only Holtz (age 23: 23G/23A in 163 games) and Cole Reinhardt (age 25: 1G//1A in 18 games) are waivers-exempt. Holtz is unsigned and sure to not clear waivers. Reinhardt is signed for two years @ $812,500. Interesting situation (imo).
Pistol Pete
I must say it does seem likely Reinhardt would clear waivers so I am expecting him to be placed on them as the preseason winds down.
I wound really like to see Holtz do well enough so he gets signed for a number that works in the budget.
Leonard Wise
Of course you sign him. He’s a 27 year old goalie with a 908 save percentage. This team is in win now mode. If Hill goes down we will be happy we have him.
Pistol Pete
OMG somebody in the media covering Eichel’s seeming pending extension finally noted what I have been harping on ad nauseum namely the Dorofeyev factor.
“However, the numbers talk could factor into other items, such as what Dorofeyev could get in his next deal. Mind you, he’s eligible for arbitration as a restricted free agent and expects a significant pay bump, which will complicate matters further.”
ThG
You harp on everything, so it is no wonder
NAM
He was found not guilty because the complainant’s evidence was found neither credible nor reliable. So the person was full of shit, but here we are talking about stupid shit once again. I wish the season would start so maybe there is more to talk about than this shit. Let’s instead talk about Hill who has now “earned” 2 contracts off of a small stretch of games a few years ago. Ha!
The hockey God
if they were tried in new york city with all the idiot liberals there, they would have been found guilty
Pistol Pete
OT:
More fascism from you. The right hating the left and we do mean HATE.
“Historians and political scientists overwhelmingly agree that fascism is a far-right ideology. This classification is not a recent development, but rather reflects the core tenets of the ideology that emerged in the 20th century.”
ThG
you clearly don’t know the definition of fascism, every post on topic exposes your ignorance. As most lefties just throw around terms they have no clue what they are talking about. That is not HATE at all, just reporting the FACTS. Take your bull shit spin elsewhere. The hate is all on the left. Did you miss the Charlie Kirk political take down by a leftist gender bender? WAKE UP numb nuts. And the radicalized toon who tried same thing in Butler. And all antiFA and anti ICE fascist tactics, lie doxxing law enforcement. Clearly some posters here are walking around in dense brain fog condition filled with radicalized fake media input into what’s left of their brain.
Pistol Pete
OT:
Hey Einstein some of these shootings political and otherwise have been perpetrated by Trump supporters including from early indications the Michigan one. Unlike you I am no schmuck just attributing all of these events to the “side” I am not aligned with. Typical fascist hater tactic. Always blame the left. Take no prisoners. Just like the Storm Troopers.
ThG
Michigan shooter? The guy hates christian based religion, not a true conservative by any extent of definition. OF course, the early stuff always comes out before it gets corrected with facts. That is what fake news does all the time, to get the false story out there first.