The Golden Knights announced today Pete DeBoer has been relieved of his duties as head coach of the team.
After lengthy discussions over the last two weeks, we believe that a new coach will put us in the best position to succeed next season. -Kelly McCrimmon in press release
DeBoer led the Golden Knights to a regular season record of 98-50-12 in his two and a half seasons behind the bench. He won four playoff series and compiled a record of 22-17 in the postseason.
Assistants, Steve Spott and Ryan McGill also let go in Vegas. https://t.co/S9Eus89303
— Darren Dreger (@DarrenDreger) May 16, 2022
GM Kelly McCrimmon is expected to meet with the media to discuss the decision at 1 PM today.
However, he was placed in an unwinnable situation. He kept a battered team afloat (1st place on Feb 14) for much longer than expected and was handed a cap-strapped nightmare the entire year; a roster void of depth and continuity. Which was completely beyond his control.
— SinBin.vegas (@SinBinVegas) May 16, 2022
DeBoer has taken the fall for a collection of missteps by everyone. From players to coaches to management to ownership, most were not good enough in 2021-22.
— SinBin.vegas (@SinBinVegas) May 16, 2022
Injuries can fairly excuse why the Golden Knights missed the playoffs, but they cannot excuse the fact a presumed Cup contender turned out to be fool's gold.
We have our scapegoat, but I'm not certain we yet have the true solution.
— SinBin.vegas (@SinBinVegas) May 16, 2022
George L.
With any luck McCrimmon, the real culprit will resign today.
Although, Pete’s Patented Pray and Spray offense didn’t help any.
Pistol Pete
I doubt McCrimmon resigns or is fired but anything is possible. Say what one may about McCrimmon but he played a role in building this organization from the ground up. He will always have a place in my book on account of that. Mistakes under his watch? Yes there are always mistakes under any GM. Time will tell if Eichel was the right move. Jury is still out on Petro—I like having him around. Imho the decision to acquire Stastny, Pacioretty and Stone in a second year effort to improve the
roster after the first season run was the right move. McCrimmon though he was just McPhee’s assistant at that time deserves some credit for that imo.
ulf
If Trotz is in fact offered the job, I hope he turns it down. There’s a few more stable options out there with a chance to win and likely more coming.
With the current FO in place, even if Trotz knows them, it’s best to wait it out.
Rick
What are the more ‘stable’ options? You guys could argue all day whether you want to watch several seasons of Barry Trotz ‘dump and don’t chase’ hockey but stability would not be a problem. He gets the maximum possible out of every roster he’s coached and has won a cup.
ulf
Winnipeg (where he has equal if not stronger connections), Detroit, Philadelphia. Possibly add Chicago to that, although I don’t think that’s a contender.
I think Vegas is in the running, but with the current FO in place it’s a risky hire.
Detroit is a top choice I think, IF Trotz wants to get in on the ground floor, something I’m not sure he wants to do. But probably the most stable FO and ownership of the bunch and they’re a couple years away from being playoff bound.
Winnipeg also a stable and reliable environment to work in, in terms of ownership and FO. And they can pitch the ‘close to home’ factor and that Trotz is what the team needs to get them over the hump. Most of the pieces are already in place, that’s a deep team.
Vegas could also pitch that there are pieces in place, but firing DeBoer was A) too late and B) obviously a way for McCrimmon to try and save his job. Foley’s endorsement of the FO doesn’t mean much with the turnover this team has shown that it likes to do. Why would Trotz say yes and join today – even with the injury-prone ageing team and lack of depth – when he could be gone tomorrow?
It may happen that Trotz says yes, but that’s nay no means a slam dunk when there are more stable and appealing options out there.
Pistol Pete
How is that having a few players over 30 somehow means you can’t win a Cup? The best teams are chock full of older players.
Pistol Pete
Lack of depth. Don’t agree with that either.
ulf
To both your points, I agree that a few players over 30 isn’t necessarily the issue, it’s WHO they have.
1) Patches has never been a dependable playoff performer. In his decade plus long career he’s only had 2 post seasons where he’s been over 0.5 points per game in the playoffs. And as we see he’s wearing down quickly.
2) Jury is out on how Stone’s injury will affect him and the team, but those injuries can start to domino other related injuries to follow. Playoff wise he’s been good, with the 20-21 post-season bad but hopefully that’s an aberration.
3) Martinez is good at what he does but is also wearing down quickly.
4) Because of the Eichel transaction (as has been well documented – and I’ll give the benefit of the doubt to Eichel in the playoffs as he hasn’t been there yet), we have to get rid of some players to keep most of what we have. And when you look at the depth of this team, it’s simply not there in the bottom 6 forwards, and the bottom pairing D looks shaky if Martinez is out for any length of time.
I do like Thompson and he’s earned a role as backup. But this market has always had an issue with overvaluing players and looking at things with rose glasses…that might be starting to change now that folks are looking at how the FO has started to construct this new roster.
TS
True, PP. Look at Marchy, at 31 yrs old, as skilled, quick and hungry as ever! And rarely, if EVER, gets hurt. He has DEFIED the odds.
And, as I watch the playoffs, the teams are, indeed, filled with mature, seasoned players.
Now, all VGK needs now is 12 more Marchies….
Rick
I misunderstood your point, I thought you meant there were more stable options than Trotz for Vegas.
Pistol Pete
ulf, can’t argue your point on Patch not being a playoff scorer but that is a small sample that could change. I also made the point on the previous thread that his injuries this season were both bone related and thus not chronic or due to age. On that basis there is hope he’ll be mostly heathy next season. Stone’s back is a big unknown and potential huge liability though.
I’m more bullish than you on the depth. They can build a roster around their core of stars and a coach like Trotz should be able to get the most out of it.
ulf
@Rick ah I hear you
@PP: well, Patches is 33 years old and has been on 7 post-season runs. 2 of those runs he’s been over 0.5 points per game, 3 if you count a series where he was 0.6 points per game. I’d say that’s a good enough sample size!
You can also add his U-20 tournament stats where he had 0 points in 6 games, and the 2014 Sochi Olympics where he had 1 assist in 5 games.
Not a playoff performer.
Patches’ style will lead to more injury and he’s turning 34 this fall.
Stone no idea, I hope he’s ok because he’s slightly better in the playoffs, last time being an exception.
But the scariest thing is there is almost no help coming. This roster is pretty much it. I don’t like the D depth at all and IMO the bottom 6 (especially when players have to go thanks to Eichel and the salary cap), it’s gonna be a Toronto situation again – a few high-priced players and bargain-basement shopping.
Herby
Trotz is the best available coach.
ulf
hey may be, but that doesn’t automatically mean he wants to come to VGK, especially with the shiny object moves the leadership has done in the past.
knights fan in minny
i vote adam oates
TikiOwl
Guess Gallant’s success embarrassed him.
VGK Fan
I guess that answers the question was Lehner going or DeBoer. I see it as once a Knight always a Knight I wish Pete well in his next adventure. Now is it Barry Trotz turn as third VGK coach?
A former season ticket holder
How about Rick Tocchet? He already lives here?
Neal
What has he done to make him more qualified then Deboer? Made the playoffs once and got beat out in the first round. What is the fascination with hiring a coach that has done nothing in this league when you had a proven winner already? The idea is to improve.
Rick
I wonder if Toronto’s exit forced their hand? Trotz would be about as diametrically opposed to season 1 VGK stylistically as is possible but he’d probably bring Mitch Korn and Piero Greco with him.
Phill elenko
BABCOCK
original 6 ✅
@ Phil elenko. hell No. he got fired by toronto for F them up
Herby
Finally.
Richie-Rich
DEBOER NO MOER!
TROTZ?
Richie-Rich
The problem I have is if KM is fired after season 6, then the new GM has to live with this coach or start over again.
The only thing stable about KM is his instability.
Blitz
I will be curious if today he will be more humble in the presser (assuming there is one) or if he will be the same douche bag he has been. You want to change the image it needs to start with him and i am sure Foley knows that.
VGK Fan
RR,
My concern the team is in cap hell and the person in charge is the reason. We have only 18 players signed and are $500,000 over the cap.
Nick Roy average .5 points per game and is up for arbitration he is likely to receive in the $3 million range. It maybe unpopular but he may need to be moved along with a big contract to give the team some cap flexibility. I guess the other option is to enter the season 10 million over the cap and play cap circumvention next year again.
Richie-Rich
A lot depends on the health of Lehner and Stone. I definitely could see them trying to play another year of cap circumvention, but I wish they wouldn’t. They should do their best to keep the best possible players and get back under the CAP. I haven’t given it too much thought, but will over the next month or two.
Tim
Think about it folks Trotz defense minded low scoring games won’t work in Vegas. I say a big NO to him. Everyone knows my choice but time will tell. Let’s face it hiring DeBoer our arch enemy never felt right to me no matter how good he performed.
TS
Tim, that is EXACTLY how I thought of hiring PDB– HE coached our main RIVAL( and a DIRTY team, at that), and Mgmt HIRED HIM??? WHO would DO that?? And PDB’S 1st trade?? Reaves!! Our team enforcer, who just happened to have big issues with SJ’s Kane?? The whole deal was a HUGE mistake. GLAD IT’S OVER.
Mark
It’s a very complicated reason for this firing. PDB just seemed a little off here. Yes, he dealt with a ton of injuries, but the PP and 0 for 17 shoot out misses is baffling to all of us. No more damn flashy off season signings, we have no Cap space. We have the core, we need everyone firing at all times to have a shot at The Cup. Sign Smith, he wants to stay. Thompson and Lehner will be 1 and 1a, that’s a given. Eichel needs a 40 goal season otherwise we are done, no excuses. It’s the only way to make up for losing Tuch and Krebs. This firing might have been necessary, it’s not all PDB’ s fault, but their not going to fire McPhee or McKrimmon so PDB is the fall guy. The fan base never embraced him either, that didn’t help either. This is how the cookie crumbles here. A few guys are available now, hopefully, Foley and the gang make a good choice.
Pistol Pete
Trotz knows this is a good team even with the cap compliance moves coming. I’m pretty sure he’ll see this as an opportunity to win another Cup.
Biggest unknown and potential liability heading into season six is Stone’s back. The other stuff is manageable.
Ann
It was mentioned before why not make Stone a coach all the guys like him and he has medical problems for him to play.
TS
I’ ll vote for that!!— ummm, do we get a vote?? Lol!
Tim
Please don’t throw names out there just to throw a name like Babcock Toronto was happy to see him go not player friendly why would we want him. This good ole boy recycling league has to change we need fresh eyes with vision as our next coach.
Pistol Pete
The core remains solid imo. D’s Petro and Theodore even minus Martinez if necessary. Assuming Stone’s back is fixed (definitely a significant if unfortunately): Pacioretty, Eichel, Stone and Marchessault. Note Karlsson and Smith are if’s. Definitely can build around that six man core.
Mike StG
I think Vegas needs a coach that can change their offensive system and power play. I’d be okay with Trotz, as he’s a players coach and I believe PDB lacked that element in his coaching style. Not sure about Trotz’s ability to manage the offense with Vegas’s lineup. I’d like Q if he’s allowed to coach by Bettman. Or Boudreaux, if Canucks haven’t extended him yet. Babcock would be terrible with his history of demeaning players. Tocchet maybe, but his coaching record hasn’t been great. And despite the fact he didn’t have much to work with in Arizona I think Vegas will bring in a coach that has won the cup or at least been near the top.
Pistol Pete
Quenneville could be good if he’s allowed to coach. Trotz or him.
Pistol Pete
I’m not too big on Tocchet. Hell of a player not as a good at coaching.
Neal
Thats what they need to rebuild their tainted image, a head coach liked with sexual assault. I don’t understand how that would help rebuild the team’s image.
Neal
*linked
THE hockey GOD
@ neal
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
VGK Fan
Quenneville that’s a bad idea this organization already has a bad image.
VGK Fan
PP,
Please read below this is not an individual anyone should want around young men.
https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/32498538/joel-quenneville-resigns-florida-panthers-coach-wake-chicago-blackhawks-sexual-abuse-case
Blitz
I actually like Boudreaux of the mix. Trotz is a good coach and I wouldn’t complain about it, but something about Boudreaux I like. Probably just that meme/gif of him cussing and freaking out. Kind of warms my heart. LOL. I feel like he has a good thing going in VAN though. Haven’t heard anything about him being locked down yet.
knights fan in minny
i heard barzal was not to fond of trotz
Blitz
I have been reading about coaches and it seems you find that in all of them. Player that hate the coach. With Boudreau, Teemu Selanne supposedly retired because of him, but I think he was like 64 at the time so to me it sounds like a sour grapes. Boudreau wanted youth.
Talk about hated though. Babcock has story after story about players hating him. Seem like that guy can be a total bully pompous douche. I am sure some players are just fragile/wussies, but there is too much of it to not be somewhat true.
knights fan in minny
adam oates power play special
JonD
Wow honestly did not see this one coming. Sort of feel bad for the guy not having an opportunity to work with the full roster ever with all the injuries.
However with the poor finish I understand the move.
I like the idea of Trots, he’s done very well with far less talented rosters but either way excited to see a new look VGK come next season.
Pistol Pete
Starting Lehner vs. Devils was a huge mistake that may have cost the playoffs. And VAN the game before. Lehner allowed 12 G those three VAN games when LT could have been playing. Some of the fans could tell Lenny was not 100% all of those VAN games. Pete should have figured that one out.
Lehner had his best season underTrotz at NYI. Could be some synergy there. In any case Trotz could be the best judge of what to do when it comes to Lenny.
Contact Tracer
Rumor has it could be Glen Gulutzan.
Former Brandon Wheat King and Wrangler coach. As well as Stars and Flames head coach.
THE hockey GOD
@CT
nothing good can come from
culo’s
cula’s
gulu’s
gula’s
or gulo’s or ghoulies
it is known
Phill
Hey Tim , Babcock was smeared by a woke group of crybabies . World cup ,Stanley cup, Olympic gold, World junior gold Take a look at what he he has accomplished he is the real deal . He was never a good fit for TO he took the big payday cant blame him hes set financially so money should not be a factor . He is a smart guy and having learned from his mistakes i think hes ready . He is proven winner and will fit better with Foleys managment syle put him on the list lets not miss a great opportunity .
DL
Rumor? That you’re starting? First I/we heard of it. More rumors about Trotz, Torts, Tocchet, etc..
Oh, in case you missed it here is the coaching styles of one Glen Gulutzan…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crG1Qjhu6xU
I say no hurry to sign the first available, especially Trotz and the already negative history there winning the Cup with our inaugural Final enemy.
There is and will be more coaches available to select, so I highly encourage the higher ups to be selective in the selection process.
Ned Brand
finally a smart move by management
Pistol Pete
https://www.reviewjournal.com/sports/goldenknights/6-possible-candidates-to-be-next-golden-knights-coach-2577369/
hdbiker7851
I was never a fan of PDB but replacing him is just putting a band-aide on a cancer cell namely Kelly McKrimmon. If everyone believes it was simply the coach’s fault this team failed, they are sorely mistaken. Do all you think Lehner playing was all on PDB get a hold of yourself it was the FO making that decision hopefully to justify their mistake signing Lehner in the first place. One thing is certain if the splash brothers’ lips are moving, they are lying and unfortunately, I am not sure the same can’t be said for Foley. PDB was not the solution this team needed despite his winning record here he was not the total reason they failed come play-off time. His lack of balls to stand up to the powers that be didn’t help his situation nor his loyalty to Spott who he should have fired. I wish him well just as I wish Gallant well, I guess we are stuck with the “Walrus” which is just another drama to contend with.
“
Blitz
I have enough hate in me for all of them. 🙂 I am still hoping RL gets pushed out next, just for the simple reason of stopping the narrative. Turk didn’t deserve to be pushed out. MAF didn’t deserve to be pushed out. It is what we have all been talking about about since the day the events happened. If both are gone we can move on from it. If RL stays we will say the same thing next year. Eat the cost and start fresh. LT is loved already, run with it.
As for KM/GM, I think the right move, this year, would have been to keep George and send Kelly packing. Both can eat shit, as far as I am concerned, but I think the deeper you cut the more you have to dig out. So keep the one that doesn’t say stupid shit the media all the time and rebuild with him.
THE hockey GOD
@ blitz, I met McPhee at the rookie tournie, he looks small but he is one mean SOB with hands like stone.
Pistol Pete
I think in the eyes of this forum I am an idiot to give McCrimmon some credit for building this organization from the ground up—he was McPhee’s assistant at day one. I do recognize the mistakes made under his watch—signing Lehner and trading Dadonov (perhaps acquiring him in the first place)—jury is out on Eichel. As he pointed out during the locker clean-out they had like 9 months only to plan for the expansion draft and everyone can probably agree they did well with that very well.
Nobody here is more hated than McCrimmon. I met him briefly at Starbucks very early one morning and was impressed with his humility and friendliness.
Richard Santomauro
We’ve been over the McCrimmon pros and cons. Apparently, Foley has decided to dump DeBoer and keep Kelly, at least for another year. To me, that makes little sense because if Foley has to fire McCrimmon next year then the HC that is hired this year might have to be dumped as well.
In any case, I am against a Rick Tochhet hire. He has a .444 winning percentage in the NHL as a Head Coach 178-200-60. He also has that guilty gambling record (2007) on his record. Sure, he was reinstated, but … this is Vegas.
Regardless of who is hired I think we will finally all be on the same page with respect to supporting him. For me, it never made a bit of sense to hire Pete DeBoer.
THE hockey GOD
who says he can’t fire co GMGM and keep the coach ??
Richie-Rich
I didn’t say can’t, to clarify – an incoming GM will likely want to select his own coach and not take a hand me down from Kelly. That’s all.
Now go to Dairy Queen and have a soft serve!
LOL
THE hockey GOD
RR fair enough, I had a donut from wicked donuts. Is that good enough ?
Hdbiker7851
PP – were his lips moving if so he bull shitted you like he has tried on everyone else. Reading your post sounds like you took the bare hook line and sinker.
knights fan in minny
so foley did have the balls to dump petey and you guys said it would be a dull summer in vegas
Pistol Pete
I am not surprised at all it happened. I’ve tended to be a DeBoer defender but after the Lehner injury debacle and not making the playoffs that was finally enough information for me. Is still think he’s a good coach but how it went down the stretch the team needs a change. Smart move by McCrimmon and not just to save his job.
Blitz
Yeah the one thing clear to me after that press conference is Kelly needs to go. I expected a more humble person and I got the same “I know better than you”, “Yes I am firing a coach, but nothing needs to change”, douche bag. He botched Ken’s questions so bad. I felt like he threw foley under the bus just so he didn’t have to speak of or go back on ‘dysfunction’. The guy is just a flat out fucking douche.
George L.
1,000,000,000 % AGREE
Howard
I can’t say who would be the best fit as the next coach here. However, I do know that TROTZ WOULD BE A VERY BAD FIT HERE. Barry is even more rigid than PDB was in defensive structure. He wants even more blocking of shots. Trotz needs a deep team to win as he also likes shorter shifts – faster line changes. Hire Barry here = VGK will finish dead last in Pacific next year, then everyone gets fired.
PDB wasn’t the worst coach, but his biggest problem was him being over rigid, not flexible. If you thought he was bad in that regard, YOU WOULD REALLY HATE TROTZ.
vgk21
then how do you explain the offensive success in Washington?
Ovie did not miss a beat in scoring with Trotz as coach. and the Trotz-coached Caps beat the Knights 4 straight after losing game 1 in the Stanley Cup final. They scored 20 goals in 5 games vs Vgk.
The fact remains that the Vgk gave up the most odd man rushes in the league except for Columbus. That is directly attributable to PDB’s dmen pinching even when it is a poor choice, risky situation.
the Vgk need better team defense and goaltending to move back into the playoffs. the goals against last season proves it.
vgk21
the LA Kings and Dallas made the playoffs over the VGK, and they scored 239and 238 goals, compared to VGK who scored 266.
best defensive teams were Carolina, NYR, and Calgary, 202, 203, and 208 goals allowed,……and all 3 of them are now in round 2
THE hockey GOD
good point VGK21
i am sending you a double chocolate donut for a wise comment,
enjoy.
EstebanTornado
Dallas and LA didn’t have as much “talent” as the VGK hired mercenaries have, what they do have that VGK lacks is character players, that’s why LA who was also decimated with injuries made it, and Dallas won when they had to. VGK cannot. It’s that simple.
The man who’s job it is to build the team did not get the right players, or tossed the ones he had to the curb.
KM did that, not PDB.
Erick Begun
I agree somewhat. I believe getting rid of DeBoer was a good move because of his issues with Fleury and Lehner. And who knows what other players he had issues with. Although it seems as if he doesn’t like goaltenders for whatever reason.
Need to replace KM, he make dumb moves at a spur of a moment. That’s why Vegas is in the salary cap mess they are. Eichel I believe was a huge mistake. Makes to much money, will be susceptible to injuries now that he had the surgery and the most recent injury of his hand. Could’ve got 2 darn good players for the amount of Eichel and still have a good salary cap abundance.
As long as Vegas keeps KM, they will never win a Stanley Cup.
Also look into trading PHYSCO Lehner. His good days are over.
Mike StG
Vgk21 –
I agree with your point about defense and giving up odd man rushes. And although many are saying PDB is the scapegoat I actually believe KM when he says the decision is about the future not the past.
The fact is the roster as constructed does not fit PDB’s offensive system. They don’t have Burns and EK65 on their blueline, and Pavelski or Meier or Hertl net front. The next coach needs to change the offensive scheme to fit the talent on the roster. So KM is right in that regard. PDB achieved a level of success with this group, but they can go further with a different offensive approach, especially with the addition of Eichel. Their in zone play needs to change, and they need to pull back on the aggressive defense driving offense, low to high, shots from the point that have become too predictable.
Eichel is highly skilled as a playmaker, as is Stone. And have you ever observed carefully how well the Misfit Line can play in zone, especially William & Reilly? They have the potential to be so much more than simply a rush offense.
The more I think about it the stronger I feel that they need someone like Q to reshape their offense (as I mentioned earlier in these comments). It would be great, albeit unlikely, if BOS somehow parted ways with Bruce Cassidy (who has had differences with the FO) and he could land in Vegas. Wishful thinking…
Pistol Pete
Good analysis vgk21. I also saw Caps offense was good under Trotz. As I posted to Howard I was concerned Barzal’s rookie year of 85 pts the season before Trotz arrived in NYI declined under Trotz. It is possible that is a Trotz effect but his numbers have still been decent.
I guess Q is just a PR risk even though he was not directly involved in the incident with the player. It was though a very bad decision to not go public when the incident emerged behind closed doors. That was just before the Finals began in 2010 which he went on to win. Horrible luck but he should have gone public with it denouncing the video coach on the eve of the Finals. It ruined his career, for time being anyways. Personally being an ardent VGK I would forgive him if he went public on the incident today. I’d rather have the best coach than remain bent out of shape over a lousy decision the guy made.
Pistol Pete
Howard I too had concerms about Trotz being just another DeBoer type defense system coach, in fact I looked as far to see Mathew Barzal who got 85 pts as a rookie the year before Trotz arrived steadily declined under him. Was it his systems? Then I looked at his time in WSH and it appeared the offense was really good under him.
Imo McPhee and McCrimmon (yes McCrimmon lol) will be a far better judge than us when it comes to selecting the coach. McPhee hired Trotz for the Caps, right? I just feel this guys have a great deal more info than us. Remember nowadays they have more analytics etc support staff to help inform decison making.
knights fan in minny
house cleaning are the people dancing on the strip
Howard
Oy Pete – you aren’t an idiot for giving KM credit for helping to build year one team; But, you may be an idiot FOR SAYING NO ONE GIVES KM CREDIT FOR IT.
We all recognize year one success, too bad KM did not recognize what made year one team so successful = 4 LINE DEPTH. No one line was great, all 4 were basically line 2-3 quality of other teams.
This allowed team to keep rolling out lines with lesser ice time per line = WEARS OUT OTHER TEAMS.
Patches and Stone trades were fine. The problem here is FRONT OFFICE LACKED intelligence, patience, and discipline to stop there.
They went into a frantic mode of signing every ‘shiny new toy’ without thought.
The beginning of the end here was Petro signing. We already had a like D man in Theodore.
for basically $9M per, VGK could have signed 3 depth guys, line 3 and 4.
Also, lack of good biz planning – they signed MAF for way too much = bidding against themselves. Paid an unproven NHL 3rd liner top 6 money (WK), frantically kept rolling over pieces even with ‘hand shake’ agreements.
All because KM, an utter moron says “good isn’t great.”
He’s an idiot because NO NHL TEAM EVER HAS WON A CUP with being top heavy and WITHOUT 4 LINES OF DEPTH.
He took “almost great” and turned it into “MEDIOCRE.”
90% bad, 10% good = YOU SHOULD BE FIRED.
Pistol Pete
Howard you make some points but how could McPhee just stand by and let all that happen unless you think he too is a moron? Furthermore he was GM for most if not all of season two therefore some of what you are criticizing was under him as actual GM not him supervising GM
McCrimmon from season three on. Where Infind in some of your logic is they have been four lines deep most of their history—like all of it except this season due injuries.
You may be right about Trotz being another rigid defense system though, like DeBoer. I can’t make that call however. I don’t know NHL systems well enough. Guy has won a lot of hockey games.
Quenneville could be the best fit except for the scandal. We have had enough controversy already. My best guess is Quenneville did not know something like that was happening until the player turned the guy in. Bizarre situation.
Most NHL players would probably punch a guy out for making sexual advances towards them or at the very least threaten to do so. Whatever, it ruined Quenneville’s career. Assuming he did not know it was going on when it was happening that was just horrible luck for Quenneville. In hindsight I’m sure he realized quickly he should have gone public when the player turned the guy in. Instead he buried it. Bad call.
Pistol Pete
Howard–
“We all recognize year one success, too bad KM did not recognize what made year one team so successful = 4 LINE DEPTH. No one line was great, all 4 were basically line 2-3 quality of other teams.”
McPhee was the GM through season 2, not you know who.. You’re right season one all four lines were basically 2nd and 3rd line quality, but they stuck with the four lines depth identity up until this season where injuries prevented it. Sure a top heavier first line beginning season 2 with Pacioretty/Stastny/Stone (which you support) but still a roll four lines strategy and roster.
“The beginning of the end here was Petro signing. We already had a like D man in Theodore.”
“for basically $9M per, VGK could have signed 3 depth guys, line 3 and 4.”
Yes it’s possible although Petro was excellent in the playoffs last year, no? Even a difference maker.
“Also, lack of good biz planning – they signed MAF for way too much = bidding against themselves. Paid an unproven NHL 3rd liner top 6 money (WK), frantically kept rolling over pieces even with ‘hand shake’ agreements.”
Agree on MAF and WK however does not completely diminish their better moves such as Pacioretty/Stastny/Stone.
“All because KM, an utter moron says “good isn’t great.””
Do you really really think with yours and my combined expertise in managing NHL teams we can say for sure if we only stayed the course of season 1 (no adjustments to the roster) that we could be beat another Caps in the next final we made?
“He’s an idiot because NO NHL TEAM EVER HAS WON A CUP with being top heavy and WITHOUT 4 LINES OF DEPTH.”
You will find TBL (going for third back to back Cup) is nearly as top heavy as Vegas.
“He took “almost great” and turned it into “MEDIOCRE.”
90% bad, 10% good = YOU SHOULD BE FIRED.”
= hyperbole
Pistol Pete
Btw Howard with all the anti-McCrimmon sentiment prevailing here, among it I have never once seen any of those fans give hun credit for one good decision, not one including playing a role in the expansion draft the trades for Tuch and Theodore and so much more that went into launching the team. They hate the guy and consider him a stupid, incompetent, self serving arrogant prick. Extremely narrow minded imo. Reminds me of intractable views when it comes to politics for example.
Mike StG
Howard –
You’re revising history as unhappy campers here often do:
1) Theo isn’t Petro. Not even that close. Petro is a stud right defenseman who can carry a first pairing assignment. Theo is effective when he is sheltered, as he was the first few years when Schmidt & McNabb carried the defensive load. Also, Theo is a natural left D. He was also never the captain of a cup winning team.
2) Karlsson wasn’t an “unproven NHL 3rd liner”. If you recall they went to arbitration after Year 1 and did not “pay” him until year 3, after his 43 & 24 goal seasons. Even the following 2 Covid shortened seasons after that he was on a pace for 20G/50P. Add to that his defensive role against the opposition’s top line every night he is well worth his salary.
3) There is a difference between going after “every shiny new toy” and trying to fill a need. They clearly lacked talent after Year 1, and with all the expiring contracts of expansion draft players they kept those they felt could continue to contribute and didn’t resign those they felt could not. How would James Neal’s 5 year contract look now? Where are Sbisa, Lindbergh, and many others who have relapsed into obscurity again. Vegas needed a true #1 defenseman and an elite center, so they pursued EK65 and Tavares, missing on both. Eventually they did get Petro and Eichel. But in the interim they signed Stastny to improve at center hoping in vain that Glass would develop. And they signed Patch as the elite shooter to replace Neal.
I’m not an apologist for GM/KM and they certainly haven’t been perfect, but their intention was pretty clear – to add elements that are typically consistent with cup-winning teams. And with the team’s early success changing the direction of their original plan you can’t fault them for trying to make that happen.
I always remember what Marchie said MANY TIMES during Year 1; “We’re not as talented as other teams so we have to work harder every night.” He was right. And having that mindset year after year was simply not sustainable. The first year they had a chip on their shoulders, and Oct 1st gelled them into a singular purpose. That’s gone and is not repeatable. Just look at the Kraken.
Pistol Pete
Mike StG In my response to Howard above I agreed with his claim Karlsson is not worthy of a top six salary (at least not based on this season’s numbers) however after reading your opinion I more agree with you on Karlsson. And as Ken pointed out in his DeBoer firing Twitter Space Karlsson may see an offensive uptick under a new coach. You are also right about his value as a two way player. I think I was agreeing with Howard that they overreached on his contract as they did signing Fleury for $7m.
knights fan in minny
lehner getting dumped to much drama flower coming back on a hometown discount flower said he would not mind coming back to minny wild signed there keeper of the future today wild need a young goalie to get some action flower and logan together at the fortress mull it over vegas fans
Original 6 ✅
say all u want. there’s only one coach for this team Period. ! All say it till the cows come home & the door was left open in the words of the commissioner! i’m from chicago & know what happened & took place and Q just knocked of sharks to Be in the first of 3 cups ! he was 3 rd to be told after GM & president. This of coarse is serious accusation. but Q needs to talk to commissioner and know what he can do ! People i been to hawks 71 stanley cup. i have seen vicious attacks on players & even NHL coaches going in stands ! Hockey players have always been given 2 nd chances & 3rd This was resolved and action taken. There was no life bans. & commissioner said the door is open for Q i’ll also tell u that the players new something about it & did nothing and still played to this day. You want the best. he paid the price. It’s settled and if foley wants to win next year. Q will do it. The NFL has more skeletons in there closet than u can imagine. Now let’s here all your comments. Name a better replacement than Q
Blitz
The more I read about different coaches the more I agree with you Q is the guy we need, if we want to win. Personally I don’t care about what he did. Did he actually do the act? No he did not. Move on. NFL players beat their girlfriends, sexually assault who ever they want and get a couple game suspension. Hell OJ murdered 2 people and walked away. The Juice! Anyway, I am all for Q.
Original 6 ✅
couldn’t of said it better. and if they get stuck with Lehner he can see eye to with him and put him in games he can win easy ! personally i not a fan of Lehner or his contract same with Karlsson! Q is brilliant with lines and style of play ! there Penalty kill was so good that teams feared of being scored on during it and in 2 years look at florida now He threw a office chair at GM Bowman for trading panarin. he was gone the next year. Bowman tossed in Caines T VO. to move bickell was another straw the man knows talent and how to make it work or switch it up. I wish he go see commissioner to at least get cleared to be available
Mike StG
I say Cassidy, who has had differences with BOS FO and has 1 year left on his contract. Though unlikely, if for some reason he parts ways with BOS he would be my first choice. Then Q.
Richie-Rich
Manny Viveiros has quite a good resume and would be a fan & player favorite!
KM did say that the organization isn’t solely focused on current available NHL coaches.
https://www.hendersonsilverknights.com/staff/
DL
Deryk Engelland may have something to say about the next coach, especially if considering Glen Gulutzan.
THE hockey GOD
Foley and VGK franchise are now officially
THE LAUGHING STOCK OF NHL
I am embarrassed to say that I once was a VGK fan.
The grape stomper legacy is going down in true Nevada style BOOM than BUST.
Like Scotty’s Castle and his gold/silver mine that never existed.
The VGK would not have FIRED PDB without having a plan B in place.
If Trotz turns down the Red wings, PDB would be a great fit for them.
Who will get a offer first ? Trotz or DeBoar ?
Blitz
As PDB’s only fan you must be sad. 🙂
THE hockey GOD
@ Blitz
I would have given him six months into new season.
This move further cements VGK
as laughing stock of NHL. Knee jerk reaction. Foley has NO CLUE
on what is needed here. He’s paper owner, knows not when to step in
and say “hey guys, that is a REALLY REALLY REALLY STUPID DECISION TO MAKE”. He is like that old dead guy in movie that sits in wheel chair.
🙂
on other hand they better get Trotz, anyone else would be a big let down. And I don’t think Trotz likes Vegas and will sign with back east team.
Hdbiker7851
Blitz – if your addressing me in your post l would suggest you go back and re-read my post. I was not and am not a fan of PDB. I simply posted the obvious problem. There were and are bigger problems with the k ight organization than just PDB.
THE hockey GOD
hd biker, it’s not always about YOU
he was addressing me.
Wait a minute, it’s not always about ME. Ok he was referring to you, then.
Have a cookie, I am. One of those cookies with strawberry dollop smack dab in middle of it
Blitz
I replied to THG. I am not sure why there is confusion here. It even has the correct indenting. 🙂 No confusion on your posts hdbiker. Just flicking THG crap as he PDB’s #1 fan. He is PDB’s Hodor (game of thrones reference). Do you get that THG? For some reason I find that hilarious. 🙂
THE hockey GOD
hodor ?
hodor ! hodor hodor hodor
hodor
hodor
hodor hodor
HODOR !!
Blitz
@THG exactly! But what does ‘hodor’ mean? It means “Hold the door”.
“Hold the door! Hold the door! Hold the door…. Hold door… Hold door… Hodor… Hodor…”
…and my point is that you are holding the door, trying to keep PDB from exiting. Totally dumb analogy, but it still made me laugh.
THE hockey GOD
blitz you funny guy
I have a shirt that says
let me get this right. I have to go get it.
in BIG LETTERS
” H O D O R ”
–Hodor—
Funny, well not funny, but a story, story that happened to me. I bought the shirt before his demise (SPOILER). Well it happened that his episode came out in which he was “holding the door” . I was wearing the shirt in Newport walking somewhere near a outdoor cafe and this girl, who as having a drink at the cafe saw the shirt and came up to me, put her arms around me and started crying “poor Hodor”. She was very attached to Hodor evidently. That was last time I wore that shirt. I was sad too.
THE hockey GOD
bad mistake to not hire someone before the draft Kelly
THE hockey GOD
hey guys KELLY JUST CALLED ME
I said
NO !
knights fan in minny
did you fall and hit your head
THE hockey GOD
@minny, were you listening in on the call ???
How did you know what my response was ?
Ron
What is the status on the other coaches? One has been there since day one !
THE hockey GOD
@ Ron, see the facebook golden site page, Kelly gives a run down of who was kept and who was let go during the presser. HE let go spot, and another assistant coach, kept a couple of others including the goalie coach (to be evaluated in future by new coach hired) and the russian coach was kept.
my favorite part and line in the whole thing was when Kelly said he evaluated himself and did a fair evaluation of himself.
My other favorite part was when he said he made the decision to fire PDB. Then brought it to GMGM who obviously was not satisfied with the decision and it took a long hard discussion before GMGM agreed. Then they took it to the grape stomper, FOLEY, who didn’t over rule any of them. Thus the stomper is clueless and gutless coward. You now know he knows NOTHING about sports franchise, a long history of doing stupid things like promising MAF to retire in VEGAS.
Hdbiker7851
Blitz – if your addressing me in your post l would suggest you go back and re-read my post. I was not and am not a fan of PDB. I simply posted the obvious problem. There were and are bigger problems with the k ight organization than just PDB.
THE hockey GOD
d biker, it’s not always about YOU
he was addressing me.
Wait a minute, it’s not always about ME. Ok he was referring to you, then.
Have a cookie, I am. One of those cookies with strawberry dollop smack dab in middle of it
THE hockey GOD
SinBin.vegas
@SinBinVegas
·
May 16, 2022
Replying to @SinBinVegas
However, he was placed in an unwinnable situation. He kept a battered team afloat (1st place on Feb 14) for much longer than expected and was handed a cap-strapped nightmare the entire year; a roster void of depth and continuity. Which was completely beyond his control.
SinBin.vegas
@SinBinVegas
DeBoer has taken the fall for a collection of missteps by everyone. From players to coaches to management to ownership, most were not good enough in 2021-22.
11:02 AM · May 16, 2022
Blitz
I don’t disagree with the shit sandwich PDB had to work with and that is on the FO, but he caused the goalie situation and lost the team in the process. He also has a shit offensive scheme (especially the PP) and a system which everyone has figured out and shut down when they needed to. I know way too many SJ and NJ fans that saw the exit of PDB put it all on the FO. But make no mistake they killed this team over reaching.
Ned Brand
It’s obvious that you know little about qualified coaches by those statements, look at his past accomplishments, he can’t win the important games, he was dumped by a team that couldn’t compete in the playoffs, his love for huge goalies got MAF moved. Vegas will be his last job.
vgk21
the fact that they also fired Spott and McGill means that they did their due diligence, and saw that the PP under Spott, and the dmen system under McGill, were subpar to say the least
THE hockey GOD
i don’t think Trotz likes Detroit OR VEGAS, but what do I know. My bet would be on east coast team closer to his home in DC area.
Detroit Red Wings coaching candidates: Add Peter DeBoer, subtract Lane Lambert
Helene St. James, Detroit Free Press
Mon, May 16, 2022, 3:19 PM
Peter DeBoer emerged as an option for the Detroit Red Wings as they search for a new coach, the same day Lane Lambert no longer was a viable option.
A week after firing Barry Trotz (add him to the list of options for general manager Steve Yzerman), the New York Islanders promoted Lambert, a former Yzerman teammate, from associate to head coach. That came at the same time the Golden Knights jettisoned DeBoer, who has extensive ties to the Detroit area.
The Wings are looking for their first new coach in seven seasons after Yzerman declined to renew Blashill’s contract April 30, the day after the season ended.
THE hockey GOD
NHL statistics over last thirty years show the following interesting details. I couldn’t post the charts for obvious reasons.
With all organizational changes controlled as much as possible (no new hires, only average roster turnover), we can take a look at the most isolated effects of change. In general, both Coaches and GMs see the same overall uptick in year one, though the splits are where this chart becomes more interesting.
All else held equal, a good Coach will outperform a good GM.
A bad GM will be worse than a bad Coach in the long run.
However, part of this is mitigated by realizing that 66% of coaches in this sample were hired within the first 3 years of a GM’s tenure, so “all else held equal” isn’t very applicable. More important is this: the first year of a coach or GM’s tenure will set the tone for improvement or decline in that team’s Scoring Chances and if you aren’t seeing improvement by year 2, you likely won’t see improvement.
To put this into practice, we can now categorize coaches & GMs with at least two years of experience. (Strongly recommend you right click + open image in new tab for these next two graphs.)
Now, these do have to be taken with a grain of salt, because there are a lot of variables that aren’t controlled for here. For instance, Quenneville got the benefit of a pair of talented players who conveniently started playing for the club his first year coaching. Bowman joined the organization the next year, turning over the roster once (68% 2yr turnover that year), and then letting it ride until 2011.
Roy, who is my current favorite punching bag, had unusually low turnover his first year coaching, but then jumped into the normal range the next year, when Sakic was hired as GM. However, Sakic has eschewed turning over the roster again, with strangely low 2yr turnover of 50% this offseason. This suggests to me that Roy probably had more influence over the current roster than the GM.
Ted Nolan…well…we all know what went on there. Rolston, on the other hand, worked for the Sabres pre-tank. He was just bad.
Yzerman might have had a slump in Year 2, but that was more than corrected with the hire of John Cooper. The Lightning abruptly jumped into the positives in Cooper’s 2nd year as coach, prompting a second round of high roster turnover, leading to the team challenging for the Stanley Cup last year.
In my sample, 75% of coaches and 67% of GMs mirrored their Year 1 results in Year 2 (increasing or decreasing SCF%). For those outliers, only 23% of coaches and 33% of GMs had very high or low roster turnover.
To really get to the bottom of the issues, you have to look at things at an organizational level, which I’ll be doing for a series on Today’s Slapshot. There is also a fairly pronounced “effectiveness” curve for GMs and Coaches I’ll be exploring.
For now, remember that a coach can only do so much without a GM bringing in a talented cast.
FROM
Exploring the Impact of New NHL Coaches and GMs
Richie-Rich
So, thus far – ALL OF MY PRESEASON PREDICTIONS ARE COMING TRUE!
Lehner – not gone but might as well be (could come back at some point, but what a cluster-F*cK).
PDB – gone
The only POS remaining is the McIdiot himself, a true laughing stock.
The best thing, in my opinion, to energize this locker room is to offer the HCing job to none other than ….
MANNY VIVEIROS
Has 14 years of experience including being an assistant at the NHL level.
This team would thrive and play hard for him.
Contact Tracer
Is everyone like me? Whenever you see a The Hockey Turd post, you just skip over it and go to the next post? Works well for me and the conversation flow is still intact …..
THE hockey GOD
@ CT
what did I ever do to you ???????????????????
chill out dude !!
Erick Begun
I think the real reasonDeboer was let go was the same issue he had with Marc Andre Fleury as he did with Lehner. Don’t know what the issue is, but that is why he didn’t get the job done.
I don’t blame Deboer alone, I blame Crimson also.
They should let Crimson and Lehner go also.
Maybe trade Lehner.
THE hockey GOD
@Ereck PDB is scapegoat, the coach is always the scapegoat.
Funny thing all the people who normally bang their heads against the wall screaming CUT THROAT, CUT THROAT organization (among other things) have strangely melted into the background.
I suspect some time in future they will be lamenting the firing of PDB like they do the firing of GG. I see no light at tunnel for future of this SAL CAP burdened roster, filled with aging damaged good veterans. Nearly every veteran is damaged goods. RL, Stone, Patches, Marty, Smith, etc. The franchise will linger in the PAC DIV next year unless their roster can be 100% healthy. That is tough to do with aging veterans with known , consistent injuries. The road ahead is bumpy, and may yet still lead to Regina as Vegas market is saturated now and fans are fickle. The “show” on the ice grows old. People are realizing it’s a “fake’ hockey experience and they are really paying for the flashing lights, the loud drums, the show girls and cheer leaders in the stands. Oh I forget, and the stripper guy who peals off smelly shirts and throws them into the crowd. My favorite showmanship of all time at T mobile ringer was during the playoff game, it was finals, they brought in the BOXER announcer. MICHEAL BUFFER. That was classic over the top VEGAS. Too bad Regina has real hockey fans and will see through the fluff.
I am done with my rant for now. Maybe more later.
Tim
THG STOP, To compare DeBoer to Gallant as far as missing him is so far off base. Gallant left with the respect of the fans hence why many of us are following the Rangers in the playoffs. Do you think whatever team DeBoer lands with will have any impact on us watching his new team in a playoff situation like we do the Rangers? How about a little Joe Friday here and just the facts ma’m.
Erick Begun
I agree 100%
THE hockey GOD
@ TIM you STOP
you know the fans here are per KEVIN iOLe, “unsophisticated”, IF and WHEN the flagship SINKS, and it will. The FICKLE FAN BASE will remember the Cut throat handling of both coaches.
MARK MY WORDS, you know the FO will feel the WRATH OF KHAN. You know it. SO YOU SToP IT
Arnold Rothstein
Arnold weighing in with playoff picks for tonights schedule
Florida
leaning Blues – but small
Canes
Oilers
I thought Bolts – Leafs was the real SC finals, but it could be Panthers – Bolts. We’ll see how series plays out. Panthers are notorious for folding in late playoff rounds. I expect AVS to eventually beat the Blues, but that should be a good series. Canes should roll over rangers. and Oilers- Flames is a toss up series.
Arnold
Tim
For you goodie two shoes worried about hiring Joel Quenneville Nevada with legalized prostitution I don’t think we give two rats asses what happened in Chicago in 2010. I was first and I see I’ve picked up other believers J.Q. is the only choice that makes a difference. Do you want to win or play politics and doesn’t everyone deserve a second chance.
Blitz
I totally agree. You want this team to achieve its max potential you go with Q. Period. You want to have a solid defensive team and *hope* the offense gets better, you go with Trotz. Trotz is a great coach, but not a fix for this offensive deficient roster.
I still like Bruce Boudreau. The VGK could have used some of this “motivation” this year.
TS
Just….CHARMING. HE’D motivate ME to wanna shut him up!
knights fan in minny
love it TS
VGK Fan
Tim,
Please read the link. Sorry, but as a STH I want no part of this guy.
https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/32498538/joel-quenneville-resigns-florida-panthers-coach-wake-chicago-blackhawks-sexual-abuse-case
VGK Fan
Tim, we all know you don’t care about sexual abuse but I think most of the people in the world do.
Erick Begun
I think Joel Quinnville would be a great coach for Vegas.
VGK Fan
https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/32498538/joel-quenneville-resigns-florida-panthers-coach-wake-chicago-blackhawks-sexual-abuse-case
THE hockey GOD
like i said earlier above
Elliotte Friedman
@FriedgeHNIC
·
23m
Hearing Winnipeg is interviewing Barry Trotz for its coaching position today.
Tim
THG, I told you so the ground swell for Joel Quenneville is on the rise don’t be surprised my friend. He is the only choice period Trotz couldn’t hold a candle to him. Now does management have enough brains to see what’s staring them in the face or would he want to much control and that might scare the Splash Brothers.
Blitz
Too much coach talk in the last 24 hours. Changing it up for a post, so one huge issue with the current team is they have ZERO grit. I can probably count the good hits for the season on my 9-1/2 fingers. Crap the DAL vs CGY series had more explosive blasts in one game than VGK had all year. This team used to bring the heat and punish other teams, now they are soft. Going forward I don’t think they need to be crushers, but they do need to up the level to at least average. I don’t know cap-wise how they can do it (or really do anything else for that matter), but I think they need to replace a couple of lower guys with some meat. They need to bring a guy like Nicolas Deslauriers in or maybe even 2. Guys that can play bottom 6 but also have a don’t fuck with us mind set. That’s hockey! I think d-bag Tom Wilson is one of the most valuable guys in the game. He can enforcement and keep guys in fear, but also is very good at playing hockey. We could never afford Wilson, but using him as the perfect example of the benefit.
Anyway, in closing I think Vegas is severely lacking in grit and I would like to see this shored up a bit this next season.