Recap: The visiting Devils picked up the first goal of the game seven minutes into the game. The Golden Knights had several chances but couldn’t connect on the game tying goal.
Most of the second period was back and forth. The Golden Knights registered 16 shots on net and we’re rewarded late in the frame. Keegan Kolesar evened the score with his seventh goal of the season. The game was locked in a 1-1 tie after 40 minutes.
The Devils shocked the hometown fans by stretching their lead to 3-1 in the final frame. Vegas fought back and got within one late in the game. However, they couldn’t tie the game and lost a heartbreaker 3-2 at home.
The Golden Knights record drops to 41-31-5 falling 3-2 at home to the Devils. Vegas failed to pick up two points and are in danger of running out of time. The Golden Knights get a chance to bounce back against the Washington Capitals on Wednesday night. Puck drop for a must-win game is set for 7 PM. (Recap by Jason)
Analysis: In a game the Golden Knights absolutely could not lose, they failed to convert on the numerous chances they had, and the goalie allowed multiple terrible goals. A miserable result that likely dooms a season that will be probably remembered as miserable. (Recap by Ken)
Upcoming stories from the Vegas Golden Knights vs. New Jersey Devils at T-Mobile Arena.
- This team just cannot shoot.
Ken’s Three VGK Stars
*** Chandler Stephenson
** Keegan Kolesar
* Shea Theodore
The difference in the final score was this. https://t.co/KjYecArNnH
— SinBin.vegas (@SinBinVegas) April 19, 2022
Remember when I said it should be Thompson's goal until he loses it?
He didn't lose it.
— SinBin.vegas (@SinBinVegas) April 19, 2022
Not much has changed since the 1st. VGK still creating plenty good enough to score, they just aren't doing it.
And the way it's going in the D-Zone, unless things change, NJD has at least one more in em.
— SinBin.vegas (@SinBinVegas) April 19, 2022
Ann
So disgusting where are all the high dollar at its torture watching them play they just plain suck
DC
“It’s the end of the Knights as we know them, I don’t feel fine.”
Ts
NO COMMENT. . . .TOO DISAPPOINTED TO RESPOND. CAN I CRY ON SINBIN? OH, I FORGOT, THERE’S NO CRYING IN HOCKEY. HOW ABOUT SWEARING AND THROWING THINGS???????
Pistol Pete
TS ours will come…hang in there!
Pistol Pete
P. S. TS—Us optimists will have to suffer some abuse between now and then though lol. We’re at the mercy of the I Told You So’ers lol. Hold your head high…we will get there!!!!
Hey we even still have a chance. Logan runs the table and we get some help from the Preds!
TS
I will certainly do so, pp. I just feel bad for the team. Such a cursed year, with all the injuries. Nothing seemed to go well. The one positive: we discovered LT is ready for the Big Time. We have an answer(hope) to the goalie gaps. We have a team flush with talent, and given time for full recovery, we should be very competitive next season.
Advice to players: it gets HOT on the golfcourse– plenty of water, wear a hat, use sunscreen!!
Pistol Pete
Absolutely TS. I like your optimism. Fans are best optimistic. What certain “realists” are slow to admit is that being optimistic does not preclude being realistic. Mostly they know this already they just like to be difficult about it. Some even rub it in and say I told you so when games are lost. In my case I think I have become not well liked in some quarters here. They are tired of my optimism and think I try to say too much in the first place. We live in divisive times—I am not a conservative not that I am always happy with every single Democrat politician however. So because I have emotions wrapped up in my fanship of VGK I’m more likely than before the divisiveness to want tom pan those off who don’t agree with me as being on the other side of the political spectrum, or to at least suspect they are. I know that’s not fair. I work in an environment populated by blue collar conservatives so I see the divisiveness every day. But I know I’m being unfair to associate my detractors here as being from the “other side”. I might be surprised to find some are not. Anyways, a sign of the challenging times we live. Nowhere is that manifested more than in the Big Lie. My goodness.
Richie-Rich
Okay, it’s trigger time.
No way on earth did Joe Biden get 81 million votes! The Big Lie is that he did.
Sorry, couldn’t help myself.
Vegas Baby
FFS – can you just stick to hockey? No one wants to hear about this crap on a message board about hockey. And quit labeling people. It’s rude.
Pistol Pete
Logan Thompson runs the table here we come!!!
Richie-Rich
The Caps are going to come in trying to grab the 3rd place spot in the playoffs from Pittsburgh. It’s going to be a tough game. I hope Logan is in goal!
TS
RR, LT practiced today. Both goalies were on ice, but LT got more ice time..it looks to me like LT should start…
I hope so, too! The guys seemed pretty upbeat, pretty good fan turnout, as well. Not quite ready to schedule those Golf T-off times yet…
Richie-Rich
Kings won tonight, they are now up 5 points on us. This run for the playoffs just got to be a bridge too far. Vancouver is now closer to the Kings than we are.
Time to start talking offseason, draft.
TS
Win tonite vs Caps, or schedule thoseT- Times…HOPE we bring a TOTAL game tonight, ESPECIALLY some scoring!
Pistol Pete
A $5m starter relegated to the bench? Uniquely Vegas!
Pistol Pete
I can see injuries from shot blocking, but does skating the players harder create burnout? No because the harder you skate the better your conditioning. It does shorten shifts though.
Daryl
I’m not so sure… While I quit watching the NFL, they talked all the fine about burning out RBs who are used to much early on in the season
Shawn Hill
This couldn’t happen to a more deserving hockey club. This is what happens when you rely on too many former Sabres. Thank you Robin Lehner, Jack Eichel, Brayden McNabb and William Carrier.
DL
That last goal against, the third and ultimate game winning goal, and quite possibly season ending goal, pretty much sums it all up. I count it three VGK players, and namely Petro for the umpteenth time, casually goes for a stick poke of the puck, misses while doing a pirouette, and allows the Devil player to go all Connor McDavid like as he skates by him and in on Lehner who doesn’t make a single move and allows the goal five hole. But to his credit for once stays up on his skates and doesn’t drop on the deck and flop like a fish, Spongebob! Too much of this and that happening all season and can’t beat the lesser teams, of which they are now one of. Piss poor play, inconsistency, lots of shots but lacking quality, non existent PP and PK, little physicality, blind passing, weak goaltending, and oh yeah, but chalk it all up to injuries.
Pistol Pete
JASFRNT!!!!
DL
Meaning?
Pistol Pete
You don’t want to know and I was being unfair. I take that back buddy. Your negative post exacerbated the bad mood I was already in from that brutal loss. Sorry…won’t happen again.
Pistol Pete
Can the two way game be overdeployed?
No, not really. Five man defense is the foundation of the game beginning with breakouts from the your O-zone through the N-zone and into your end. Backchecking is the heart and soul of defending. It burns up gas and shortens shifts but maintains player conditioning and focus.
Pistol Pete
Is it a liability to activate Dmen on the rush or from the blue line?
Absolutely not. A forward either stays back at or retreats to the blue line and is in the same position to defend as the D he replaced including retreating to defend through the N-zone. Does not not involve addtional backchecking for the fowards as they would otherwise backcheck from deeper in the zone. Does not create burnout.
Daryl
Yes it is a liability for a couple of reasons. First of all you are forcing a forward to play as a defenseman. Most Forwards cannot play as a defenseman very well as uts actually a very big difference from their normal position.
Secondly, if the defenseman jumppps into the offensive zone at the wrong time, it can lead to odd man rushes, which VGK had a huge problem with. Same happens if you’re defenseman misplays or turns over the puck as he is jumping in
Pistol Pete
But what about the good teams with high scoring D…think Hedman at TBL as but one example. Forwards cover for D in the rush or coming in from the BL. Standard hockey. Howard paints in as outlier. Just another baseless reason for hating the DeBoer system.
I think DeBoer could be on the way out. Not due to any failure of his system but for lack of fixing the PP. Maybe the players don’t like playing for him but that is nothing more than a thought. If true his system is a problem. As I have pointed out the first season and half and before this injury riddled one, his G and GA has been excellent dispelling the notion his system does not work.
Daryl
If you look at Etang with the Pens, he will also move up on the blueline but he doesn’t do it as much. Most of his points comes from assists as they cycle the puck around. He may take the puck further in the offensive zone but it’s not from pinching. They also don’t do it with every line. PDB runs basically the same scheme no matter who’s on the ice.
Henderson One
I think that the spirit of this team has been broken for some time and that your thought that players don’t like playing for PDB is correct. His history is one of destroying teams not building them. He takes what he is given the first year and usually wins with it but he and his system do not wear well over time. If Foley is an owner committed to winning he needs to have a complete overhaul beginning with the front office and extending through the coaching staff.
Howard
Pete, you aren’t going to understand no matter how many times I say it so there is this, ready?
Even with another coach, this VGK team as constructed may have made postseason or not but regardless, the team would by no means win The Cup as they simply aren’t deep enough – This aspect is entirely on an immature child-like front office who lacked the discipline to say NO to every shiny new toy that came along.
PDB’s system especially won’t work when u got to double shift continually.
Again, I prefer a simple hockey system with a smash mouth, in-your-face coach like Gallant, over a passive aggressive type like PDB.
Pistol Pete
“Pete, you aren’t going to understand no matter how many times I say it so there is this, ready?”
Then why do you bother saying it again? Man you can come across as one arrogant dude. I must have said or done something to rattle your feathers. This after I have been gracious enough to concede your analysis of the DeBoer system has drawn my consideration.
“Again, I prefer a simple hockey system with a smash mouth, in-your-face coach like Gallant, over a passive aggressive type like PDB.”
Why then did the VGK slide slowly downhill with Gallant beginning season 2? And downhill they went make no mistake about it. To be right on your critique of the DeBoer system means no other successful coach has much of any complexity in what they do.
Pistol Pete
Is the rusk taken away in playoff hockey?
Yes, in as much as defending in the N-zone is better execeuted in the postseason, obviously. Better defending in the N-zone, fewer rushes, obviously.
Pistol Pete
Isd there a point to limited cycling of forwards towards the boards?
Yes, to maintain possession and set up lanes in front of the net.
Pistol Pete
Does playing a rigid system cause player burnout?
Probably not, at least not when the team is winning games. All winning teams have a structured system.
Pistol Pete
Is the DeBoer system the downfall of the VGK?
Absolutely not. DeBoer’s goals and goals against have improved over Gallant. Overall the players have scored more (not this season due to injuries) and have defended better (not this season due to injuries). Injuries were not an issue until this season.
It’s not DeBoer’s system per se, it’s the PP and the PP is not integral to the system, obviously. The PP could prove to be DeBoer’s exit card. It lost to MTL in the playoffs and has been losing games this season.
Daryl
Part of it is PDB system and part of it is PDB inability to make adjustments. We all get it, you like PDB and feel the need to defend him. I’ll try to find the link but I read that VGK leads the NHL in odds man rushes given up. That is part of his system. PDB does not his strategy based on the team he is playing against and he didn’t adjust his strategy based on the players he had on his own team
Pistol Pete
Sure I want my coach to be effective and will defend him against armchair analysis until he shows he needs to replaced. I don’t know how
more clear I can make it that there is a case building that he will shown the door over the PP. The main reason for defending him other than the PP is easy. Heading into this injury plagued season his G and GA is excellent. What better proof that what he does has worked? Am I missing something?
Pistol Pete
Just so there is no confusion–I am an armchair analyst also. No more special than anyone else.
Daryl
You can’t just use G and GA as your defense… There is more to the game than just those 2 stats. Here is a sts, VGK gives up more odd man rushes than any other team. That is due to the system PDB runs on all 4 lines
Howard
Daryl, you are trying to have a discussion with a guy who said;
“I am always happy with every single Democrat politician however.”
No, not the fact he likes one political party more, but the fact that ANYONE WHO IS HAPPY with “politicians” who almost all of them (both parties) are lying corrupt immoral people, are seriously out of touch with any semblance of reality.
Arguing with someone like this is a waste of time.
TS
Howard, in fairness to PP, his post in question stated” NOT always happy with every Dem…” Just saying…
All issues aside NOT relating to hockey, Kick some CAP ass tonite, Knights!!
Daryl
I just want to see someone take Wilson out…. Maybe a. McNabb hip check. I just hope Kolesar doesn’t get something up his ass and yet to fight him so he doesn’t get too embarrassed
Pistol Pete
I attended the practice yesterday and watched the PP drill however it was not scrimmage style with the four defenders (risk of injury too high?). It looked good but without defenders it always looks good. That it struggles in games remains an enigma. It needs coaching.
Ulf
Anyone who blames RL for the loss tonight does not know hockey. Sure he could have played it better on the last goal.
But once again the VGK team defense was nonexistent. One Devils skater made it past THREE VGK players to get the shot off. Who knows what RL saw at that point.
Lazy defending by VGK.
Virtually the same play happened in the playoffs last year against Flower…one skater blows by 2-3 Vegas players and scores. Many people on this board were blaming Fleury.
It’s easy to point the finger solely at the goalie as they’re the last line of defense. But blaming the goalie and ignoring why the opposing player got past the rest of the team to get there is also ignoring an honest assessment of VGK’s system and execution by its players.
TS
Yes sir! ” it takes a Village”……
the hockey God
viilage is a commie concept, stop quoting libtard hillary silly, the village idiot
Ulf
I guess you’d better go watch sports that don’t involve teams then. Golf, poker, singles tennis? Most not bad options.
the hockey God
village analogy is not a team concept, socialism concept, get it right next ”’time” conflating the two is utter failure.
Mark
Agree !!
Mark
Agree
TS
Thg, why would you inject POLITICS into so many things on this site, other than to Rock the Boat just because you CAN??
That pesky mean gene is regenerating itself again. Take a chill pill, already!
the hockey god
ts I didn’t interject anything that wasn’t already interjected. The person who started it interjected the stupid it takes a village hillary the criminal’s comment. I finished it, deal with it. IT’s all in writing above. A hockey team is NOT A VILLAGE. Not by a long shot. GET OVER IT.
Ulf
Holy cow. “It takes a village (to raise a child)” is a proverb coming from various African cultures, decades maybe centuries ago. What the heck does it have to do with Hillary Clinton unless she happened to say it?, that certainly was Politicizing something that didn’t need to be.
Honestly this coke-Pepsi American politics thing is nuts, and only got worse over the last 6 years. Hopefully will start to chill out a bit.
Back to hockey…
VGK fan in Summerlin
Oversimplification to say one blaming this on the goalie doesn’t understand hockey. One could turn that right back on you and say you must not understand basic hockey. Specifically I mean on the second goal it was an incredibly easy glove save that most any goalie makes in his sleep. A soft shot from a ways out that the goalie could see the whole way in. Goalie catches it easily but then drops it like a toddler learning to play catch for the first time. Drops it right in front of the crease, they make an easy goal. Can’t happen.
The one that got around Petro the player takes a shot right in fron of our goalie, soft shot, goalie never even looks down at the puck, puck goes right through 5 hole as usual, goalie doesn’t even understand what happen. Can’t happen. These are 2 incredibly soft goals that just can’t happen. And these happen a lot.
No blame on the goalie, it’s on the coach that rolled him out there that should take the blame. And then there’s the hole other problem that the team just isn’t very good right now. So not totally on RL we can agree, but to say that to blame it on him means one doesn’t understand hockey is just not accurate.
Pistol Pete
Thompson gets a shutout 1-0 or 2-1 at the worst. Can’t say I blame the coach for not relegating Lehner to the bench for the remainder of the season heading into this game which then VGK was heavily favored to win but at this point that is how it looks. Who knows Thompson could suck too.
Ulf
It actually is – RL could have played better absolutely. But why is the VGK defensive structure making it so easy for a play like that to seep in?
I’ve played hockey for over 30 years and watched since I was a kid (not at the NHL level obvs:)
It’s a team game. VGK have been sluggish defensively for a good while despite PDB preaching that as a strength in his systems.
the hockey god
Holy cow. “It takes a village (to raise a child)” is a proverb coming from various African cultures,- various ??? sounds like a made up talking point, hillary mentioned it more than once, she brought it to political scene, and we all know she’s a socialist scumbag.. And a hockey team is not a child. More evidence that this is non applicable to hockey.
TS
thg: Dude, you have way too big a chip on your shoulder!It was a simple comment,NO hidden political meaning, only inferring that it takes the ENTIRE TEAM TO WIN OR LOSE A GAME. YET you INSIST on getting your panties in a bunch!! The 2016 election has been over for 6 years. Hillary Clinton is PAST TENSE.NO ONE CARES.
My comment was NOT ” SOCIALIST OR COMMIE”, as you called it! I have tried to keep the political BS out of HOCKEY. Do you see conspiracies around every corner? Commies hiding in your closet?? Holy cow…
TS
THG: And ALL YOUR POLITICAL POSTS WE HAVE ENDURED FOR UNTOLD MONTHS A-R-E “APPLICABLE” TO HOCKEY??? COME ON, MAN…..STOP MAKING SOMETHING OF NOTHING! SILLY MAN….
ulf
oh dear. Maybe she brought it to the political scene only in the USA. It’s been part of the philosophical lexicon in many other parts of the world since I was in uni back in the early 90s, and it was considered old then by western academic standards (since it came from elsewhere).
I thought the phrase the way it was used here was a fun and pretty accurate metaphor for teamwork, especially given where VGK is now. And it’s not political. Maybe the phrase was used politically by someone but geez…there’s a difference. The world is big.
Frank
Yes defense was not good…. But that’s why you need good goaltending at times. We just don’t have that luxury. FWIW, that third goal was one of the worst plays on the puck that I have seen from a professional goaltender. Obviously RL was not tracking the puck at all on that play….. Oh well I suspect wholesale changes to our knights before next season starts…. And it needs to start with the coaching staff.
Pistol Pete
Ulf better goaltending wins that game. A PP goal would have helped too. Ouch!!!
the hockey God
^^^^^^^^^ULF^^^^^^
VGK fan
ULF
You are correct the blame needs to go to Pete he made the decision in goal. I don’t blame RL he did the best he could.
Pistol Pete
Maybe the best he could but it should have been good enough and was not even close. Thompson appears to be better right now, way better.
ulf
If RL is being blamed, better blame the Vegas D for allowing the Devils to walk in on goal #1 AND goal #3. This has been a problem for years – lax D coverage. The Devils literally either skated right around them or through them.
This is why hockey is a team game – I guarantee in the dressing room, the D was not blaming RL for 1 and 3 and instead taking responsibility for missing their check. I do feel RL should have been sharper on goal 3 and he’s def not ignored here, but is he the main reason why the Devils scored there? Not even close.
TS
TO ULF: EXACTLY. TEAM GAME. that was my inference to “VILLAGE” that so inflamed Thg. Thanks for “getting it”!
VGK fan
ULF,
You are correct that wrist shot from blue line was very difficult for RL definitely to hard to handle.
TS
SAY WHAT?? Did you really post that?? Good grief…..I MEANT to imply that it takes an ENTIRE TEAM TO WIN AND LOSE, NOT ONE PLAYER. Come on, man….
TS
For THG
Daryl
It might be a team loss and RL is part of that team…. But it is his job to stop pucks from going in the net. He did not have a good game at all. So yeah, we can blame RL for that loss, atleast in part.
Howard
“Anyone who blames RL for the loss tonight does not know hockey. ”
It’s not about ‘blaming’ RL per se. More about him just RARELY making game saving stops when said D screws up. RL allowed 2 bad goals last night. If he stops them, perhaps the end result would be different.
Here’s the correct take IMO;
Front office had NO BUSINESS offering RL $5M per for 5 years = GROSS OVER PAY and bidding against themselves and, a rushed panicked move. No other team was willing to give Robin term.
Because this poor front office overpaid MAF as well, then over paid RL(notwithstanding petro contract), it set up a bad CAP situation in which the dummies here had to LET MAF GO for nothing.
RL’s ceiling is nothing more than an above average 1Am and a good 1B. YOU DO NOT PAY $5M per for 5 years for that.
So, RL might be unfairly treated, but I don’t want to hear his whining or anyone else’s – he accepted the money. Being treated EMOTIONALLY unfairly be a fanbase is par-for-the-course in The NHL. Boo-Hoo!
VGK fan in Summerlin
Knew this was going to be the result as soon as they announced the starting goalie, which actually made me close to sick when I saw the announcement. About 98% of anyone that watches the games could have predicted this as well.
This is the most incredibly stubborn management and coaching staff. Deny what your eyes have been telling you all season, that Robin Lehner just is not good this year, in fact he’s been literally terrible in countless games. However, just deny that and stubbornly roll him out when the season is on the line is utter hubris you are living in denial. You had a goalie playing well that the team was playing well in front of, and you just roll out the goalie who is fighting the puck, struggling mightily.
This is on coaching and management. You earned this loss by denying the obvious and assuming you will beat NJ while not playing your current best players. I believe the other players don’t play as hard for Lehner because they think they have less chance to win, hope I’m wrong about that but it must be demotivating to see soft goal after soft goal go in.
I predicted before this stretch run, as many of you had, that Lehner would be the undoing of the playoff chances. I said he would be started no matter what despite being really bad at times this year and that he’d probably perform at a .875-.900 save % down the stretch, giving up multiple softies at key moments to bounce them from the playoffs. I was called a moron, idiot, buffoon for suggesting something so ridiculous. Well here we are.
Not saying they would have made the playoffs for sure with Thompson in or would have gone far even if they did make it because they still can’t score, have a horrible power play, don’t defend, have a bad penalty kill….well let’s just say they’re not that good, But the starts they gave to Lehner over Thompson basically sealed the coffin and these losses were totally earned by management and the coach that made the decision.
I don’t blame Lehner at all, his play has been totally predictable we are getting what anyone can see we would get. The blame is on management for rolling him out. What’s the definition of insanity? Keep doing what you’ve been doing and expect a different outcome…. Sheesh….
Looking forward to Raiders season
Pistol Pete
I pretty much agree with all you said. I think a challenge was not being able to bench their $5m starter for the remainder of the season (a big statement to Lehner and everyone else) and who knows maybe they are right to be concerned the task is too tall forThompson which could prove true. Hopefully we’re about to find out.
Pistol Pete
Btw I too was worried they would lose with Lehner starting. I tweeted OMG!
Howard
Ship has already sailed Pete – season is done no matter who is in net at this point.
VGK fan
You are correct I took +280 when I saw the starter. This was not RL, he is who he is this is on Pete.
Richie-Rich
I too was mocked, ridiculed and laughed at when I gave up on Lehner in mid-January after he posted a subpar .900 GAA for 6 weeks (1 Dec – 15 Jan).
When Fleury played that poorly the FO panicked and brought Lehner in. No such panic in January over Lehner though. VGK gan is right. The Coach rolling out Lehner is the reason for this latest playoff wrecking loss.
Daryl
They won’t panic b/c that means they are admitting to everyone the messed up
Howard
Rich, the reason you didn’t see any panick move here when RL went bad was entirely about VGK over blown huge egos of the front office.
Basically, if they made another bad panick move, they’re basically saying. “WE SHOULD BE FIRED, WE ARE INCOMPETANT” << which they are incompetant btw.
Galdom
VGK fan in Summerlin….. Robin Lehner’s performance in the most important game of the season was absolutely disgraceful and as someone who has backed him there is absolutely no way that it can be defended.
I couldn’t even sleep after that game.
Have a great summer. Hoping for better things from the VGK next season.
VGK fan in Summerlin
I hear you Galdom, thanks for the gracious shout out. I know you’ve been a big Lehner supporter and that your support has been backed up by lots of historical data suggesting he’s a very good goalie. And based on that historical data it was safe to assume that his good performance would continue. For whatever reason though unfortunately he just hasn’t had it this year, crazy inconsistent. I sure wish the best for him and his family.
I also saw some posts where you, even though a Lehner supporter, thought LT should have gotten the starts down the stretch. Just can’t believe that if you thought that should be the case, and I thought that to be the case, and 99% of fans thought that to be the case, why the heck are Deboer and the McManagers the only ones who disagreed….so stubborn, to a fault they have been.
the hockey God
anyone blaming goalie or coach have their heads up there smelly you know whats.
it has been the d causing losses, this whole season as well as lack of O against situational teams. All because of injuries, covid, and sal cap personnel manipulations on roster.
failure of execution , lack of ability by certain AHL level players, lack of team depth due to a nubmber of factors
Frank
Simply put…. they need a better system – PP, PK, defense etc. and that comes down to coaching (the buck stops there – injuries aside). A more consistent goalie would help too. RL is good at times, but lets in some really suspect goals that end up deflating the team (see last night – goals two and three). Brossoit was not the answer, and neither is Thompson yet (although he has shown some flashes of excellent play). Best case scenario is that we actually miss the playoffs to spur some action by the FO. Change is in order this offseason.
ulf
correct there THG. The D were a bunch of pilons on goals 1 and 3 in particular. Would have been nice for RL to bail them out on goal 3 and it wasn’t his best moment, but it doesn’t get to that point if for once, the D plays the man and makes the check.
Daryl
That’s not a bailout, that’s an easy save. Listening to you guys one works subset why you even need a goalie… You have a defense back there who is responsible for stopping all pucks, or at the very least you could use a high school goalie for most of the game since your defense stops most pucks
ulf
Hey my POV is RL could have been better and gotten that one for sure. I just wouldn’t put all the blame on him for that goal and say “he lost the game” for VGK – not saying you’ve said that, but others have.
RL did not lose the game for VGK.
1st period: Vegas gives up a 2-on-1. Not the last time they’d do it this game. Hischer shoots, Lehner comes up with a save.
Later in the period NJD forward Bastian suddenly appears alone, literally right in front of Lehner with NO VGK D to be found anywhere near him. McNabb gave the puck away to start the NJD play and ends up in a different time zone. Bastian taps the puck in for a goal. That was a hard one for many goalies to stop. (McNabb had a bunch of turnovers this game.)
And the list goes on…many examples of defensive lapses, poor execution which combined with RL sometimes being a step or two behind how he has performed in the past, and it’s a goal. But all anyone wants to talk about is how RL sucks.
I’m not sold on RL one way or the other. I think he’s a solid goalie you can win with in the right situation. But VGK has no depth, poor execution and the coach historically hasn’t been flexible with his style. That doesn’t equal long term success.
Team game, team loss.
Other markets have become known as a ‘goalie graveyard’ (Philly has, and Vancouver was for a time) for no good reason other than the goalie is not Dominik Hasek and the team loses games. I’d hate to see Vegas turn into one of those. It’s hard to get out of.
Howard
“RL did not lose the game for VGK.”
The above is a correct statement but so is this’
“RL did not WIN the game for VGK” either.
D will break down sometimes, This year a lot of times. However, Robin seems to have his head up his arse quite a bit – loses track of the puck constantly, flops out of position a lot.
So, Robin is part of the said bad defense of VGK; he is the last line of defense as the tender, and he is in part to blame, along with the rest of poor D here.
Daryl
thg gets to rescue and defend PDB!!!
JoeInHendo
@THG (aka Robin Lehner):
I don’t comment here often, but after watching last night’s game, I was interested to check today’s comments. You didn’t disappoint with your obvious favoritism of RL and DeBoer. For the most part, hockey is a fairly simple and straight forward sport because of the low scoring. If a team has good coaching and a good goal minder, chances are they’re going to win. Last night VGK had neither. If there was ever an example of a goalie losing a game, last night was it. If Lehner stops 2 easy goals, Knights win 2-1, simple as that. If VGK players believed in DeBoer’s coaching decisions and had respect for RL, they’d play harder and execute PDB’s schemes. A simple eye test from last night reveals everything you need to know about the player’s feelings towards RL and PDB. And to assume VGK players know less than anyone who posts here is arrogance at the highest level. And if an a abashed RL apologist poster here is a VGK player incognito (hint hint hint >my theory that “the hockey god” is actually Robin Lehner<), then your opinions are naturally going to be completely biased towards yourself and the coach who brought you in. There is NO WAY any objective observer could watch last night’s game and not place the majority of the blame for the loss on Lehner (and DeBoer for once again starting RL instead of going with the hot hand in Thompson). PDB’s post game presser was filled with “I don’t know” responses from him when asked what happened and what’s to come. DeBoer did give props to Logan’s recent play and was majorly pussy-footing around while subtly criticizing RL and Broissoit. Yet when asked if Thompson was the starter going forward to try and salvage the playoffs in VGK’s last 5 games, good ol’ Pete responded with “I don’t know”. This is the reason Vegas is in serious jeopardy of missing the playoffs for the first time in franchise history, PDB is a fraud, especially for not knowing who his starting goalie is after watching RL’s pathetic performance last night (not to mention his pathetic PP). Even Gary Lawless wanted to go off on Lehner last night, but frustratingly held his tongue. If Thompson is not the starter from here on out then it’s obvious PDB doesn’t have this team’s best interest at heart and is stubbornly protecting the goalie he brought in at the expense of the rest of the team and VGK fans.
Blitz
Yes ^^^
Pistol Pete
Joe, I agree with the part about Lehner. He lost this game. In watching the highlights I was surprised to see so many driving the net players parked in front high danger chances. Three posts in the highlights including Karlsson on the only PP. People here harping on all shotst from the outside or the blue line. What bullshit. They did not watch the game with a fair eye. Offense was not the issue. It was goaltending first with some little D breakdowns second. Don’t be surprised to see another good effort vs. Caps. You heard it right–last night was a good effort.
VGK fan
Joe,
Lawless did compare Lehner gaffes to MAF in playoffs.
JoeInHendo
@VGK FAN
Yeah, I picked up on the MAF comment from Lawless too, but you could tell Lawless also wanted to EXPLODE on the terrible job Lehner did with allowing two ultra-softies. Lawless further wanted to rip into DeBoer for not leaving Thompson in as starter for the critical remaining regular-season games VGK has left. That’s the holding of the tongue I was alluding to.
the hockey god
@ JOE IF THE D DID THEIR JOB THEY WOULD NOT HAVE PUT THE GOALIES ON BAD POSITION IN THE FIRST PLACE. THIS NOT ONLY GOES FOR RL OR BACK UP GOALIE OR LT IT HAS BEEN CONSISTENTLY A POOR D PERFORMANCE ALL SEASON LONG REGARDLESS OF WHO WAS IN THE NETS. TO SAY I FAVOR RL OVER THE BACK UP GOALIE OVER THE LT IS A PUTTING WORDS IN MY POSTS THAT ARE THERE. FURTHERMORE no. 17 is a poor defensiveman. He’s AHL quality, out of position most of the time, and no. 7 has to compensate for his lack of position/play. Clearly the worst d man on the team by far. His play the other game in which no. 23 tried to get him the puck when was obviously out of position led to 2 on 1 break and goal because no 23, could not get puck to him because he was in the wrong lane. He is a very positionally poor defense man. No. 7 has to slap his stick on ice too many times, no 17 fails to pass the puck to him when no. 7 is wide open. instead no. 17 tries to force the play by shooting into a blocked lane. This is just one example of many. No. 23 is clearly a step too slow. no. 61 and no. 67 clearly not firing. But that is offense issue. The team did not have enough time to jell and over come too many man games loss. But overall their very poor d play all season long cost them a clear chance at playoffs. Also, that 6 game road trip in which they fell out of the playoffs was terrible. It happened back east and nearly everyone on the team had the flu.
On one last note, the boards at T mobile are weeping. The puck does not deflect like it used too. Why? The Vegas heat where they store the boards has impacted the wood structure on a molecular level. Call it wood warping do to excess vegas heat in storage lots.
Muckers
bad ice, no factor.
Warped boards however is an issue this season. Bet on it.
Howard
LOLOLOL @ “my theory that “the hockey god” is actually Robin Lehner.
You ever read THG’s pro conspiracy ultra Right Wing rants on here? ROBIN LEHNER IS A LEFTIST, man!
RL took a knee for the Anthem that one time; THG would likely take a bullet to the dome before he would ever kneel to The Anthem.
Your theory is as far off-base as THG’s Covid rants.
the hockey god
@howard
i never rant on covid, when did I rant on covid?
oh i c what you are doin. My bad.
Daryl
You are correct, but they he defends RL it makes it difficult to tell at times
JoeInHendo
@HOWARD
Did you ever stop to think that THG’s occasional “right wing rants” are a diversion to hide who he really is? If I were a highly-commenting-on-several-issues public figure (as Robin Lehner is/was) and wanted to post as someone else to defend myself and my coach, I’d create a Bizzaro (Superman reference) alter ego as a diversion and talk about unrelated topics such as THG sometimes does. Kinda like Kevin Durant having burner accounts lol. Anyway, when I refer to THG as “aka RL”, it’s in jest……..or is it?
the hockey god
@Joe
I am not the wiggy biscuit, I can assure that. I would never invent a name like that under the guise of RL or anyone.
I didnot give him a very favorable season rating. I also called him the walrus. Walanda, among other coined nick names. Your goalie is only as good as the D around him.
A former season ticket holder
Sorry…the goalie should have had to submit a cup of piss after this game….staring into whatever safe space his mind was in as the 3rd goal slid past him with out nary a twitch
the hockey god
former season ticket holder on piss sample- and submit it to the Kentucky Churchill downs official for suspension – like they railroaded bob baffert. one trillion of trillion parts per million FOUND. Just because you can measure something to a gnat’s ass doesn’t mean that it could get a gnat high !
Pistol Pete
Definitely think DeBoer gets shown the door unless through some miracle they get in AND the PP improves. Been a tough season with the injuries for which he derserves some slack but that PP OMG! It’s a shame the PP is the difference maker for him because otherwise the results are very decent. DeBoer has always appeared to me smart, amicable and with a good sense of humor. As for his system, athough it has produced a decent winning record and favorable G and GA stats, my mind is open to the notion the players don’t like playing it. That would be a problem.
have another donut
Let the firings begin. let the trades begin.
if they bring back the same coach, same goalie, and same washed up vets, then good luck getting many fans except the pollyanna ostriches to buy into the charade.
They wanted a parade, but instead they got a charade.
have another donut
Perimeter domination. that is the PDB “system”. Float all over the outside, but just don’t get greasy, or down and dirty, or battle in the trenches, in the crease, in the slot, or in the goalie’s face.
Screen the goalie? tip in a shot? rebound in a shot?
Huh? we don’t do that here in Vegas …what are you daft?
they can get shots, get puck possession, but oh boy, just don’t ask them to actually put the biscuit in the basket.
Making old washed up goalies look great again. 40 year old Mike Smith, easily shuts them out….the old Hamburglar playing with a weak ass team? no problem for him either.
Effort is phony when it is only on the perimeter. Real hustle, real effort is outworking the opponent in the trenches and crease. and you won’t get that from this bunch, or with this clueless clod behind the bench. all brought to you by the junior league failure from Manitoba.
Julie
There might be a good article already, but maybe SinBin could do a detailed analysis of PDB’s system and how it flourishes when certain conditions are met and where the gaps are when they are not met. Injuries aside, and perhaps it’s naive to some degree, but I thought a good coach takes what he has and pulls the best out of players.
Maybe this is the best DeBoer can pull from this group at this time, but the results will reflect negatively on him. It’s an example where many want to quote his record, but that doesn’t mean much now. Just like any other player in the NHL, you have to produce. Ideally, a player gets enough loyalty to get over a slump, and PDB has had plenty of time to get the team to the SC by VGK standards. PDB’s MO is get close the first year, then slip away the following years. Many hoped that cloud was lifted for VGK. He definitely has to take some responsibility here.
JoeInHendo
Everything you need to know about Pete DeBoer is he takes Stanley Cup contenders and slams them into reverse without ever hoisting the trophy. First Devils, then Sharks, and now sadly for us, Golden Knights.
Pistol Pete
But under DeBoer his first two seasons goals scored was like #7 and #3 in the league. Scoring was not a problem until this injury plagued season or vs. MTL in the playoffs. Biggest problem there was the PP. Look at the CGY game…driving the net goals. The criticism that all shots come from the outside is overused because in the better wins that does not hold true. Yes it is an issue though.
Howard
Err, another half-truth comment from you Pete – “Scoring was not a problem until this injury plagued season or vs. MTL in the playoffs.”
You forget Dallas series in the bubble?
Scoring will always been an issue IN PLAYOFFS with a PDB coached team, no matter how talented they are.
Pistol Pete
Unfortunately your critique does not apply to the CGY game and other wins this season against good teams. Easy to critique after bad losses.
Howard
CGY didn’t play a lick of D that game – they played a horrid game thru and thru.
Pistol Pete
The notion that DeBoer deploys a system that does not reward getting the puck to the front of the net is absurd. You must think he’s stupid.
vgk21
He did not say “get the puck to the net”. He said very clearly that they don’t get the PLAYERS to the net. That is perimeter hockey.
He clearly said screens, tipins, and rebounds. He clearly said that perimeter hustle is phony hustle, that it is only half the equation.
Kevin Iole just had an article on here that echoes the same sentiment.
Howard
“The notion that DeBoer deploys a system that does not reward getting the puck to the front of the net is absurd.”
I already explained why you don’t see Dmen nor forwards a lot at the front of the net under PDB system.
How will Dmen get to front of net when you cycle them to take point shots from blueline? How will forwards get to front of net when you send them side-wall then backwards when you constantly pinch dmen in?
How many times should a person explain to you PDB’S system before we realize you refuse to listen?
Yes, I think HIS SYSTEM is stupid (stupid is as stupid does, Forrest)
As for you? Well, any person who makes a statement that they like politicians from my point of view, is also STUPID so there’s that 🙂
Jim D Burke
Perfect post Donut.
TikiOwl
First firing…McCrimmon.
Pistol Pete
McCrimmon brought us Eichel. Some who opposed that have come around. No last night was not his best game. I would not blame McCrimmon solely for the Lehner acquisition. I’m sure McPhee and Foley played a role. It’s a monumental task to land an elite goalie to replace the one you see as going out. In retrospect we wish they had kept Fleury. Let’s not forget Lehner was excellent in the bubble and until this year was working out soft goals here
and there notwithstanding. It was a risk taken that has not worked out.
Lehner across 29 playoff games:
GAA 2.19
SV% .919
This has been a very tough situation just because he can be excellent but loses some games on softies.
Joe InHendo
McCrimmon gets no props from me for bringing in Eichel. Other scouts, GM’s, and coaches did the work of evaluating and developing Eichel (hence the 10 million dollar price tag). All McC did was take an extremely expensive (and desperate) chance, when no one else would, on an injured star to try and get out of the hole he dug for himself with bad trades and the letting go of great draft players. Eichel’s play has improved, but no where near his 10 million price tag at this point of desperation. If anything, McC and DeBoer saw Eichel as an insurance policy for not getting fired. If Eichel helps get VGK to the playoffs McC and PDB say “see, Bill, we told you he’d make the difference” and if VGK misses the playoffs, McC and PDB can cry “please Bill, give us another chance next year to show you what we can do with a fully healthy Eichel”. McC and PDB making poor hockey decisions, but being clever trying to save their own incompetent selves. McC and PDB have done an outstandingly piss poor job of developing and keeping young, relatively inexpensive talent, and instead, buy expensive proven talent in which other GM’s and coaches already did all the work to develop them into the expensive proven talent they are. Anyone could do that with the same results were seeing now. Hell, I could do that and miss the playoffs too….where do I sign up?
the hockey god
Foley signed off on deal, this is all on him. He knows nothing about hockey.
He’ll never be more than at grape stomper from Texas.
Howard
One of the rare times I’d agree with THG, that concerning Foley – dude knows nothing about hockey and he’s likely being played by his front office.
THG would also likely be surprised to know, that I’m a lifelong conservative. I just STRONGLY feel politics are corrupt and should DEFINITELY not be ranted on a hockey board and wish Ken would delete posts like that – from a righty or a lefty – no place on a sports board IMO.
JoeInHendo
@THG
Thank you for affirming my Eichel comments. Both McCrimmon and DeBoer know Bill knows very little about hockey, that’s why their little Eichel insurance policy scam worked on him, just like the majority of their other terrible moves that have VGK on the brink of missing the playoffs.
VGK fan
The Devils last two goals simply embarrassing no excuse blame needs to go to Pete for decision to start RL.
PP, not good enough stars on the team not good enough.
Tim
Let’s start with home record 21-15-3 is not what championship teams are made of. Personally I think everyone is playing as hard as they can the problem is they only have so much skill. My first worry going forward is Stone’s back going to be a constant problem if so that’s 9 million dollars shot in the ass. Patch is done how to get rid of his 7 million dollar contract is tricky. William Karlsson is definitely not worth 5.9 million dollars. Dadonov at 5 million and he has had 20 goals next year at 33 I don’t see him being a viable players. Next Lehner 5 million dollars is another contract we need to eliminate. Hague is to slow and Coghlan is not very good so there’s two more roster spots. You have to get an influx of younger faster skaters that can shoot the puck. Whoever is the management team has a lot of work to do in the off season if not we’ll be in the dreaded mushy middle.
Pistol Pete
Not sure agree on Hague…the 6 G/10 A/+6 in 52 games Hague. He may not be a speedster per se but his presence is missed imo. I like his intelligence too.
VGK Fan
Patches has been a point a game player for the last three seasons. I don’t feel he is fully healthy if he gets back to health there is no reason to believe he doesn’t regain his form.
I would add LB to your list at 2.325 million he could be moved out Logan Thompson has already proved he can be a better back-up.
What could have been I believe it was Ken, Jason, RR, Blitz, Daryl and Frank who suggested to go with MAF and Logan Thompson this season. That would have set up next season with MAF team friendly $3 mil and LT at $766,667. Instead we are spending $7.325 million on below average goaltending.
Galdom
Hey Tim, I took issue with some non-hockey comments you made and while I didn’t agree with them I wish I didn’t argue so much about it.
I think you’re the first person in a while that’s brought up the home ice record. One of the things they have to fix is the home ice dominance that they used to have. They have to start making teams hate wanting to visit The Fortress again.
Have a great summer. I hope the team is much better next year.
Vic
While RL is still looking for the puck from that third goal all I can say is…. Go Rangers and Wild, I guess.
VGK Fan
Vic,
Thanks, I needed a laugh!
Pistol Pete
But sometimes they do get players to the net. CGY game is an example. Basically games they win they have gotten players to the net. Also, teams score from the point and the sides it’s part of the game. I am not denying they have an issue with driving the net per the Iole article it’s just that you guys post like it never happens. Not accurate or fair.
Daryl
It does happen, just very rarely. Most of the time you don’t see players parked in front of the net
Howard
And I explained why that is Daryl, several times. You seem to understand it, Pete doesn’t for some reason and he played hockey?
CC game – Flames played ZERO D – they had a very bad game all-around and that will happen to the best of teams.
The best teams HAVE THE LEAST AMOUNT of bad games. Same with tenders – LT had one bad game against Oilers whereas RL is the opposite – he had like one good game. Taking LT out when he didn’t NOT SHOULD NOT lose that net based on one bad game may have cost VGK any shot at postseason.
That’s just flat out bad coaching IMO. Now, maybe PDB was pressured by the vile KM, I can’t say but VGK has become a train-wreck that anyone with half-a-brain seen that coming when team OVER PAID for MAF, then gave up on him, OVER PAYING FOR RL, OVER PAYING for an unneeded Petro, trading depth for another cap hit of $10M for admittely an elite 1C.
Who’s to blame here primarily? 1. VGK front office, and by far. They made decision to fire Gallant in-season. They brought on PDB, they made the personel decisions, they could not say no to any new shiny toy.
And people want to talk about their good intentions? THIS IS BUSINESS MAN, not fairy-tales.
Challenge – name me one, JUST ONE NHL that loaded up top heavy up against the cap (REMEMBER, TOP HEAVY) while turning over roster, and the result of doing that was winning a Cup..
Took TB YEARS TO WIN their first Cup with the same core. Same with CAPS.
Trying to buy a CUP has NEVER WORKED. VGK had in year one, 4 solid (nothing great, but solid) lines. They finished at 109 points, 3 games shy of winning the whole damned thing.
1st mistake – Patches =- UNNEEDED – poor front office evaluation, gave up too much to get/take on huge salary of an oft injured ONE DIMENSIONAL player.
Not a mistake – Mark Stone. That’s a guy you want on your team and topline – an assist winger who plays 2 ways – constant Selke contender.
Mistake not reupping Perron.
Mistake over paying Nate – again, bidding against themselves. Ever notice how this childish fo rectifies mistakes? THEY DO SO BY TRADING AWAY their own bad contract they created. Other teams know this an lever Vegas = forces Vegas to throw in draft picks which now, we’ve wasted up – likely ensures years of being a bad team coming up VERY SOON.
Now they got 2 bad contracts in Petro and Lehner — Stone might, MIGHT end up as 3 -SEE THE PATTERN YET?
Mistake reupping MAF for $7M per – NO OTHER TEAM would pay him ANYWHERE NEAR THAT. Again, this is a business man. $5M tops – the savings of $2M could have gotton a solid 3rd/4th liner = DEPTH.
Mistake signing RL to a $5M, 5 year term contract where NO NHL was offering Robin anymore than single year contracts, why? MAF was already under contract for $7M.
Injury history, mental and addiction problems – HUGE RISK = no team would touch him. No TEAM NOW WILL TRADE FOR HIM, so people saying “dump’ RL” simply are ignorant how business leverage works. NO TEAM WILL TAKE HIM and no team wanted him before FOR ANY TERM. VGK would have to throw in at least 2 higher draft picks and even a prospect which we are RUNNING THIN on because of this poor front office.
The result of signing RL and having MAF was a front office absurd spint how “important it was” TO HAVE 2 top tenders. LOLOL – no one would take MAF at that point because he was yet AN EXPIRING contract, having 2 YEARS REMAINING – do any of you posting here understand business at all man?
Ken knew these decisions weren’t good ones. Ken said many times correctly that 4 line depth scoring wins Cups and he is right.
Perhaps Ken should be GM and president? I’m dead serious on that.
And some boob on here suggested I write KM? LOLOL. KM not only should be shown the door; he should NEVER ever be allowed into any front office again, unless it’s as the coffee runner boy!
Blitz
Good post Howard! Well laid out.
JoeInHendo
@HOWARD
Spot on with your assessment of how VGK has gotten to this point. On top of the countless mismanagement mistakes, I’d say the 5 MAJOR mistakes (chronologically) are as follows: Mistake #1 was making McPhee VP instead of keeping him as GM and installing McCrimmon. Mistake #2, letting Perron go, dude is still lighting it up with the Blues and would have been cheaper to give him the pay bump he wanted after season 1. Mistake #3, firing Gallant mid-season (McC pressured Foley to hire a recently-fired-from-Sharks DeBoer). Mistake #4, bringing in Lehner. Mistake #5, giving RL Fleury’s job without RL earning it, causing bad blood and the “backstabbing tweet” incident from MAF’s agent. Now no one likes playing for PDB or in front of RL and VGK’s chances of making the playoffs are in serious doubt.
JV
Off topic, but regarding a hockey trade….figuring all the NMC/NTC work our.
To NY Islanders: Patches, Theodore, 3rd or 2nd pick.
To Vegas: Anders Lee, Noah Dobson
Pros: Cap space as Dobson is cost controlled.Dobson is Theodore 4 years ago, though his defense should improve as he won’t have to lug 45 year old Chara around. Lee is front of net dirty area presence VGK needs. Isles desperately need puck moving LD 2 after trading Towes and Leddy. Theo could be LD 1 on their team and give them a PP1 QB.
CONS: Lee is overpaid for a lot longer than Patches, would Islanders even consider trading their Captain and parting with a cost controlled Dman. Might have to take Bailey or Beauvillier back to even out money.
Any thoughts?
Howard
Seriously JV? You are asking a front office here with a collective IQ of 20 to actually get creative?
JV
Well, one can dream. I just like that Dobson gives close to Theodore’s production ( 11G 32A +3 W/ 2 PPG 16PPA ) on an ” I Hate Offense” Barry Trotz coached team for about 4.5 million less per year than Shea, and he’s RFA with no arbitration rights.
Pistol Pete
Theodore is having his best season points wise although his +/- is only +3 down frpm +28 and +12. I don’t see them moving him especially with three more years @$5.2m.
Smith, Dadonov and Brossoit get them under the cap although it will cost for Dadonov and perhaps a little for Brossoit.
They will no doubt want to bid for Forsberg if he goes on the market to replace Pacioretty but that would involve trading him at considerable cost. Obviously Forsberg should make a great LW for Eichel, essentially a six year younger carbon copy of Pacioretty, but the cost is likely too high. Forsberg will probably just hold out for more money from NSH although he might want a change of scenery. It will be interesting to see what he does.
Pistol Pete
Karlsson would have to go for a Forsberg deal:
Forsberg/Eichel/Stone
Janmark/Stephenson/Marchessault
Carrier/Roy/Amadio
Leschyshyn/Howden/Kolesar
Pietrangelo/Hague
Martinez/Theodore
McNabb/Whitecloud
Thompson
Lehner
Janmark will be a UFA—the above assumes he is re-signed (maybe). Hague and Kolesar become RFA’s so who knows? Trades could impact the bottom six.
https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/goldenknights
ulf
well, you might as well put McDavid, Draisatl or Matthews in there instead of Forsberg as they both have the same chance of being acquired by VGK.
Looking forward to seeing what the team looks like next year though.
Pistol Pete
I will watch the game and come back with some impressions. In watching the highlights there were a number of high danger chances for the VGK out in front of the net so I’m not sure on all the claims about about a lack of that. People parked in fron of the net. I think some of the claims about these in front of the net issues have becomne an over used excuse for lack of scoring where what’s happening at least some of time is the high danger chances in front are not being finished. Karlsson hit the post on the only PP that looked good although I have not seen all two minutes.
Give Lehner the first goal.
Pistol Pete
Roy hits the post on a breakaway (his second) followed by three Knights parked in front of the net. C’mon folks you have to watch the game instead of falling back on these default criticisms. Get real. Just not scoring on breakaways and high danger looks in front of the net and with people parked there too. Kolesar’s goal Lecshyshyn is rushing the net. Three posts in the highlights plus another massive 2-3 VGK right out front in the third and that’s just the highlights.
Second and third goals unforgivable. Lehner lost this game beyond any shadow of a doubt.
Expect another good effort vs. WSH. I have not seen the whole game but I’m pretty sure defending at key moments was a bigger issue than lack of offense. 44 shots and no folks not all from the outside or points far from it. Get real!
Howard
It’s where players are netwise IN CYCLE Pete – u played hockey and don’t know this? Out of cycle = “spray and pray.”
Richie-Rich
Scoring droughts are a staple of the DeBoer System. That needs to be looked at. What is it about his system? I think it has to do with pinching D’s and cycling all the forwards to the Blue Line to fill the holes. The only forward that hasn’t seen his production fall off since the days of Gallant is Marchy!
This needs to be looked at closely.
Sure, injuries can be used as a factor, but is it more than that?
Lehner looks lost out there, and worse – disinterested.
Julie
Hey, RR, I have a radical idea… maybe DeBoer should look at what the coach of the Panthers, or Colorado, or even the Rangers, and just copy what they’re doing. Couldn’t hurt. Then claim his system works.
If RL is seriously having issues, I do hope as his employer, VGK is trying to help him. I wonder if they are alternating goalies based on who they play, maybe thought the Devils should be easy?
Howard
Correct Richie this part especially – WITHIN THE CYCLE. Something this Pete guy who says he played hockey (Junior High?) yet fails to grasp.
You shocked Rich that > “Lehner looks lost out there, and worse – disinterested.”
Depression, Bi-polar often results in that. I should know, I used to suffer from it.
VGK knew of Robin’s issues and made the poor decision to sign him anyways whereas no one else would.
Tim
To look at what happened last night objectively it was a disaster in so many ways. First off Jack Hughes one of there best players didn’t play. Next the 14th seeded team in the east beat us at home. Next it was an absolute must win for the Knights and they failed with most of there big guns playing. We have many issues and for a team on top of the world 5 years ago with so many draft picks and core players and they let it all slip away chasing the cup. I watch Tatar last night we gave 3 draft picks for him and then gave him away to Montreal. Did it again this year in the Eichel trade. We gave away 2nd round picks for Stone, Patch, Janmark, Lehner, and who knows how many others I can’t think of right now. Now were probably not in the top 16 teams next year. teams like LA, Anaheim,Detroit, Ottawa, Vancouver, Montreal, plus all the teams that are already ahead of us this year you’ll see a dip in attendance next year. I told you all from the start Vegas doesn’t support losers. The Vegas mystique is gone were just another older team on the down slide.
VGK Fan
Tim,
You mentioned daft picks we have given up please remind of the impact players we have drafted since 2017, I can only think of one. I don’t like to trade draft picks either but since we have only drafted one impact player does it really make a difference if we use the picks to obtain quality players since we aren’t very good at development or draft analysis.
knights fan in minny
how sad to lose to the lowly devils when your fighting for your playoff lives its time for some new eyes behind the bench
Frank
Yes…. Definitely speaks to a coaching issue. Change is needed.
JW
I am sure that it was already mentioned but our D core has been our undoing for a long time now. It seems that our offense is predicated on break outs and cycling in the O zone. We have had adventures in zone clearing for two years now. Even #7 struggles at times trying to exit the zone and hit a lead pass. Watch when the opposing team flips the puck in deep into the corners. #2 nearly always traps it behind the end line looking for support and then you see two other Knights moving in.
If I put aside my feelings and look at it objectively #27 acts like a forward who wants to play defense (and even tries to dangle the puck while exiting his end and gets picked by a true forward) and hits like a small forward. #2 has a really weak stick and has less speed in closing than #3 (cant skate or stick handle) loses the one on one battles and turns over pucks like crazy. #23 blocks everything and still has the skates but gets caught doing blind passes now and isn’t physical. Other than McNabb (great hip checks)We have no weight and muscle on the back end which really gets exposed as you get to the end of the year when the refs allow opposing teams to hold and slow down the VGK. They cant clear, hit passes exiting our zone, get caught looking in their own crease, cant clear out their crease and if they try to shoot it from the point and the defender blocks it within 6 feet of the shot they break out and have easy odd man or one on one rushes.
The transition game is literally lost before they can even play the puck out of the zone. If I was RL or LT it would be very hard to support the d core when they are literally giving the other team the slot and grade a chances. I guess when you pay one player $10mm to anchor your d core and that person is an offensive minded nice guy who doesnt get rough with anyone (Eric Karlsson) you get what you get. That may be the PDB strat but we sure the hell dont have a Burns, Vlassic, or Dillon back there bringing the pain.
So if I am summarizing what is being shared on this thread:
We have a huge offensive problem (Cant score)
We have a major defensive issue (Cant stop them from getting amazing chances to score nor can we help our forwards break out)
We have a weak goal tending core (Cant stop shots)
and of course our PP and PK are both shit as well.
Otherwise we are in good shape?
vgk21
oh, but McCrimmon said just recently that his Vgk d corps was “ROCK SOLID”
direct quote.
a Gm with rocks in his head
Pistol Pete
After watching the highlights and now the first period, the claim they are not getting skaters to the net is absolutely ridiculous. Yeah NHL do not like just instinctively head for the net. The issue is completing the pass, getting the shot off, finishing. In the highlights probably at least 20 skaters made to the front of the net. I don’t know who to believe around here. Everything that is said you have to check up on it it’s wrong so often.
Howard
“the claim they are not getting skaters to the net is absolutely ridiculous.”
Not getting net presence in cycle Pete – man, u are one daft dude, are you actually Peter Deboer?
Should I try this “H.E.L.L.O” with dots to make it easier for you?
You know (you actually don’t) like how a good power play moves IN CYCLE?
Ready Peter?
Puck enters zone, where do forwards go IN CYCLE (means in sync with puck motion) for Vegas every time? THE SIDEWALL.
Dmen first set up shop at poin/blueline. Option 1 VGK uses far too much – as soon as puck is cycled to dman high, he shoots right away while forwards STILL CYCLING from SIDE WALL = no net presence and when there is, they crash looking for rebound (Good D teams will just bump you out most of the time), STILL OUT OF CYCLE.
Another option VGK uses a lot which I hate is the dman pinch up to either wing side while dropping one forward behind net, one forward to blueline (often times that other forward jumps in, leaving the odd man rush wide open.) This causes TOO MUCH sloppy stick battling and stale puck/cycle movement.
The simple way which works in hockey (Don’t tell stubborn PDB this) is simply just keep the dmen back and blueline and have them SHOOT THE CORNERS AND NOT THE NET, in cycle with forwards coming in off halfwall for forward 2-1 (1-1D) forecheck.
Year one team under Gallant were vicious forecheckers and when YOU HAVE 4 LINE DEPTH, you can wear out other teams with this style. Same with Rangers this year – SIMPLE HOCKEY system.
This is why I won’t entirely blame PDB but at the same time do because when he had depth, HE NEVER MADE ADJUSTMENTS, especially the Dallas series.
The adjustment in that series was an easy one – SHOOT THE CORNERS to bust up Dallas ‘net stack.’ That forces the forecheck.
So, in my strong opinion, I don’t think PDB should be fired simply on this year’s results, no – he should be replaced based on a system that DOES NOT ADJUST, WILL NOT ADJUST, and is an over thought NON SIMPLE waste. In other words, I don’t think he will ever win a Cup with any team.
One more note – biggest reason Habs had success last year was THEIR REALLY BIG and physical DMEN in which Tampa totally exploited, we did not because PETER ONCE AGAIN, failed to make that adjustment (ditch the half wall cycle, more back passing entering NZ to SZ, force Habs DMEN TO SKATE MORE).
Again, hockey is very simple. Always use your players to the best of THEIR ABILITY, MAKE ADJUSTMENTS is something isn’t working, NEVER FORCE THEM TO PLAY YOUR STYLE – this is what PDB does/doesn’t do and why he should not be a coach of any NHL team IMO.
Pistol Pete
You reference my quote:
“the claim they are not getting skaters to the net is absolutely ridiculous.”
You go on:
“Not getting net presence in cycle Pete – man, u are one daft dude, are you actually Peter Deboer?”
Insulted my intelligence.
“Should I try this “H.E.L.L.O” with dots to make it easier for you?”
Condescending implying I’m dumb.
Not sure what your damn problem is man. I did not call you dumb, in fact the interest I took in your DeBoer analysis implied the opposite. I’m an armchair analyst also. I’m right about your anti-Deboer stance. Rather than kust trying to impress us with your knowledge do something to effect change. Not all of your stuff is right anyways and some us react negatively to criticism of the coach.
“You know (you actually don’t) like how a good power play moves IN CYCLE?”
If you would just go back and read my post I was not referring to the PP. You’re not always on top of your thinking either obviously. I’ve done something to make you defensive. Clearly.
Howard
No Pete, I just think anyone who says they are “happy” with any politician is dumb. Yes, I think you are dumb and/or incredibly stuck in your own head as you don’t pay attention to what others are saying.
Example of ease = I was only using PP as an example of lacking cycle > stale. It’s called “an analogy.”
the hockey god
end of playoff run players ratings
no. 71 F, defense is all he brings. No O. completely disappointing season
no . 81 , C , all he brings is offense, poor passing, poor on d, poor on puck control, take too many hot headed penalties at wrong time
no. 19 , Smith C+ / Incomplete, brings X factor, unknown injury. I would bring him back if FO thinks his injury is not long term.
Stone no. 61, D, cpmletely disappointing season, obviously playing hurt entire year
Patches 67 jeckyl and hyde A in first half, C – in second half. Obviously damaged goods
No. 20 , good first half, shadow second half, B-
No. 10 Roy, a step backwards this year C , inconsistent
no. 55 kolesar, another step backwards this year, D+
patrick F
dadonov, B- , I am not a big fan of Boris or any Russians at this point in time. Too small, no shot.
Janmark- C- , hard to see him, invisible man.
no. 15, I like him, but too small, moved off the puck to easily, Incomplete.
Jonberg. I like no. 15 better.
Amadio, waiver claim pick up, C, strictly a fourth liner
no 9 incomplete, for 10 million dollars needs to show more; strong on puck, good passer, good shooter. Like 67 maybe needs more time to jell. Incomplete.
d men
coghlin, C- I like his shot, I like that he tries hard. Only one year in NHL, expect him to make or bust next year.
Whitecloud, the chief- I like no. 2 a lot, but he didn’t progress during crunch time. C+, often playing ping pang pong with puck at his skates ending up in his own net. Interferes with his own goalie a lot, why is that ? Still young D men, expect him to improve more.
No. 17 , hate him, F
see why in above post.
no. 14 hague, went sideways this year after break out season last year. C-
no. 7 D , failed this year, didn’t fire on any cylinders.
no. 23 incomplete, seems to have lost a step, came back from injury too soon. Not impressed with his play since coming back.
no. 27, B-, only D man to play some D , some of the time, but often makes bone headed D plays. Seemed to pick up is D up a notch in last month of play. His nifty offensive skills makes him a go too, must play player in every OT situation.
no. 3 mcnab, stopped making big time hits after coming back from his injury, first half rating B, second half rating after returning from injury C-
howden- i like howden, I hope he comes back full time from his injury.
carrier- i like carrier, but injured too often. If either of their injuries are not long term expect both to back with team next year, unless they are UFA.
RL – C-, let out to dry too many times this year. Appeared to be playing “safe” after March 8th injury, favoring his shoulder. Obviously playing hurt, and lacking confidence in last part season after coming back from injury.
LT – C+ , left out to dry a lot also, needs to get better, often over plays the puck to either side of net, must learn to correct his angles and keep puck in front of him, stay square to shooters. Should improve next year, but he’s no youngster, he’s 26.
Overall team rating C-, not getting job done. Obviously.
Back up goalie, F. Has only one move, down into butterfly, and uses it all the time getting beat top shelf too many times.
VGK Fan
THG,
Great analysis, however, IMHO, I would rank the following players higher than you based on the greatest ability out there and that is “availability”.
I’d give #81 B+, 63 B, and #7 B-
Julie
Howard, I am glad you are back! I don’t know that we agreed on every point when I last saw you here, but I still appreciate your hockey insight tremendously. Hope all is good with you.
I may have missed it in all the novel-length posts about feelings and what not, but I am curious what you think of the current team, who the most promising players are. I think PDB should go, but I actually think they will give him a pass and say it’s not his fault, too many injuries, too tough to inspire the players that could play, etc.
Howard
Hi Julie – ya, I’m around and maddened by this year. I think without injury VGK prob makes playoffs, but not a Cup, nor even the Cup final. AVS, MINN, Blues, Calg, Oilers = all better teams.
The problem with player evaluation here is contract size/cap hits. Dadonov is a good player to have on your bottom 6, but top 6 FOR THE MONEY he is paying paid is BAD.
Stone you keep obviously. When healthy, he’s a constant Selke type forward.
Patches when healthy, is a good sniper but that’s about it. While he has improved defensively, he’s still not good in that area. Because of so many front office mistakes here and loss of leverage, it’s unlikely we would be able to move him so we are stuck with him – better or worse.
Janmark signing I never understood even at one year. For me, I want forecheckers in my bottom 6, physical bigger players who can at least be average skaters in balance and speed.
Team this year should have made a run on Phil Denault, and not trade for Dadonov. I understand why they made the Daddy run, but no matter who you put on this PP, it’s a fail because it’s poorly coached. Denault is a fantastic D forward who better fits PDB’s system.
Shea – I have been calling for him to be traded the day team signed Petro. Petro signing was a bad one because it ate up a lot of cap space FOR A WANT, NOT A NEED. Another case of poor VGK front office lacking patience and disp.. Both of these dmen as offensive orientated – U KEEP ONE OR THE OTHER, not both = poor roster construction. I would be looking to trade Shea since you can’t trade Petro for 2 depth bottom 6 forwards + draft picks.
VGK fans won’t like what I just proposed but this is a business – U HAVE TO GIVE TO GET.
Martinez resign was a horrible decision because WAY TOO MUCH money for an aging dmen. Marty is good, BUT HUGELY OVERRATED and over paid – yet another poor front office decision.
Mcnabb is OVER PAID as well — see the pattern here Julie?
What I think needs to happen is that Foley needs to clean house and start over with a some good hockey men and/or women. I don’t care which sex they are, I care about their brains being good!
If Vegas doesnt do this and Foley continues to be played by the front office clowns here, it will be years and years of having bad teams. Foley will have to sell the team as he has become cash and equity thinner – going all in on this team.
I’ll address more of this in another post 🙂
Galdom
Howard, you have insight to Foley’s finances and whether he can afford the team or not???
The worst part of the Pietrangelo signing was not necessarily because he wasn’t a glaring need for this team but because having him on this team has diminished what Shea Theodore is to the team. Logically, Pietrangelo replacing Schmidt was something I was okay with because Nate Schmidt is over paid.
No way of knowing this but I suspect that they had interest in Philip Danault. They usually like to go after players that have had success against them. The Kings gave him a generous contract that Vegas never could have matched. Danault is having a career a year offensively and this has worked out extraordinarily well for the Kings. I think most people saw Danault as a 15 goal, 40 point guy who is great defensively. I think on a very good team which I thought Vegas was supposed to be, Danault is a good 3rd line center and I don’t know if you could be paying third line centres 5.5 million. This is precisely why I think William Karlsson is a massive overpay because I believe at this stage of his career he is a third line centre and he is paid $5 million. I really like Danault but his contract is a bit of an overpay. I don’t think Danault offensively is going to repeat what he did this year. Kings cap situation is much different than the Golden Knights. Great signing for them because they have the cap space and Danault owns the VGK.
If you’re going to trade Shea Theodore you better get a boatload for him. I understand some of his shortcomings but an offensively productive defenceman like him on the open market would get about 7.5 million per year. The fact that his cap hit is extremely reasonable that makes him a very valuable.
Howard, keep posting.
Howard
“Howard, you have insight to Foley’s finances and whether he can afford the team or not???”
Yes, it’s called Google! Its public knowledge that Foley pretty much has his whole net worth in to The VGK.
When team begins to be bad for years because of this poor front office, fans won’t come to games, and Foley will have no choice but to sell the team.
Galdom
My google says he owns several wineries, golf courses, hotels, ski resorts, steak houses, fast-food restaurants and auto parts manufacturers. Oh well, different search engines
VGK Fan
Gladom,
Great post I totally agree with everything you said.
I would just add the problem with the Petro signing was the term and the NMC we were bidding against ourselves the Blues had already move on from Petro at the time we signed him.
Galdom
Thanks VGK fan. Have a great summer. Hopefully this team is much better next season
Julie
Thanks, Howard – I know Stone is good when he’s on, but I did find myself yelling at him during the playoffs that for 9M, his genius needed to shine through. Same with Pacioretty in recent playoffs. I imagine injury had something to do with it at some point.
I agree on the overspending for shiny toys. It doesn’t always translate to team chemistry either. VGK changed perceptions of hockey with its first year, but again with how they are so blatantly trying to buy the SC.
I am hoping LT gets a good run out of this and gets a team that will really work with him.
Richie-Rich
We do not yet have an elite 1st line Forward on this team. Eichel and Marchy are the only 2 players on the team right now that I consider “qualified” to be on the 1st line.
When you compare the statistics of the VGK forwards that have played on the top line versus the top lines of the other top tier teams in the NHL, it’s not even close.
Not even close. And it’s not just about injuries this year. I am talking about the statistics for all of these forwards (except Eichel) over the past several years. The last time we had elite 1st line forwards was in year 1 under Gallant’s game plan. The drop off in points (Goals/Assists) for some of these players was huge after the hiring of DeBoer, especially Wild Bill and Reilly Smith.
Have the players regressed, or is it more likely that the game plan is radically different. It’s your opinion that matters to you. For me, the determining factor is the Head Coach change.
VGK Fan
RR,
While agree with almost all of your post I would disagree with your comment we don’t have a 1st line forward. Stone has averaged a point a game over the last 5 seasons and Patches has averaged a point a game over the last 3 seasons.
Howard
“We do not yet have an elite 1st line Forward on this team. Eichel and Marchy are the only 2 players on the team right now that I consider “qualified” to be on the 1st line.”
Ahh, Mark Stone WHEN HEALTHY?
When healthy, Stone is a continual Selke candidate. I suppose if we are to say “as in” right now, you would be correct as Stone still looks out of speed, so-to-speak.
Richie-Rich
You go look at all of the Forwards that are better point wise. Stone, Pacioretty, Marchy, Smith – all of them are way way down the list when compared. They aren’t even close. That is what I am talking about. None are in the same league as MacKinnon, Landeskog, Mathews, McDavid, Draistl. These are true first line threats, game changing forwards that can carry a team to victory.
We don’t have a single forward like that. Eichel may be that guy, but he’s still getting his legs under him and has no one that can play with him at that high level.
This goes to my point that we overpaid for Stone, overpaid for Pacioretty, overpaid for Karlsson, overpaid for Smith. The Golden Knights didn’t need to clean house. They didn’t need to fire Coach Gallant. They had a team with chemistry, attitude and they were in sync with the coach’s system.
I am sick and tired of hearing how how Gallant and the Misfits regressed because you are talking about a fairly short period of time. It didn’t take long for the VGK FO to start stripping down the team that went to a Cup Final.
What the VGK has now is truly a bunch of high paid misfits. They don’t fit with one another, and they don’t fit with the coach’s style.
Sure, this is my opinion. But many feel as I do about what has happened to the Golden Knights the past few seasons.
Richie-Rich
I considered Mark Stone as being worthy, but he’s never “carried the team” on his back like other elite forwards across the league. He’s not at the same level as a Landeskog, Mathews, McDavid or Draistl. He’s good, but not that good. He too was shut down in the playoffs, and shut down hard by Montreal.
So, as good as Stone is, even when healthy – he’s not going to carry a team on his back.
What McCrimmon has done is truly put together a roster full of overpaid misfits who have no chemistry, no attitude, and at times look disinterested. That’s McCrimmon’s legacy. People like PP, and others are going to argue that I am wrong but – I say – the proof is in the results. I also do not think that the injuries were that big a factor. The problems on offense, 5 on 5, 4 on 4, and PP have been a factor since DeBoer was hired.
Daryl
Well…. NASH just beat CGY and LAK won also…
So there’s that
Galdom
Funny how these other teams are winning important so-called must win games.
Galdom
10.5% chance of making the playoffs now according to money puck odds. ROTFL
the hockey god
@galdom
Slim and none. And slim just left the building
Howard
Because they’re true playoff teams Galdom and VGK isn’t 🙂 >> 🙁
Pistol Pete
This references how NJ began a rebuild DeBoer’s second year. This runs contrary to the contention made here time and again that following his trip to the final his system drove the team to ruin. A worthwhile read imo. Some of what is discussed runs counter to Howard’s contention that hockey is simple and as such should be run that way ie. KISS.
https://www.fearthefin.com/2015/11/2/9648596/what-to-expect-from-peter-deboer
It would be interesting if someone who remembers DeBoer’s two finals and believe he came up short due to his system can explain the losses and how if his system is poor he made the Finals in the first place. Also, assuming the MTL series was ultimately lost to the 0-15 PP how then does the ineffectiveness of the DeBoer system explain making a trip to a third Final and any reason to believe he loses to TBL solely based on his system. This assumes the PP is separate from the System.
Pistol Pete
As for his tenure with the Sharks I can’t counter the contention that his system lead to their demise. For example, was he impacted by FO roster changes entering the 2019-20 season as was the case in Jersey? He had a good run making the Final his first year and the postseason the next two.
Howard in his anti-DeBoer analysis never to the best of my knowledge ever explained in detail exactly what the system is and how it differs from a typical one. And I’d like to better understand how other coaches improvise and deviate from a more conventional approach.
I have been reluctant to jump on the anti-DeBoer system bandwagon before first, I completely understand it and second, before I conclude it loses or at worst is incapable of winning a Cup. I am also not convinced DeBoer is dumb enough or too stubborn to never make adjustments. DeBoer is not stupid.
Most of all he has an well above average winning record here and as a fan I support that. His system has performed well his losses to DAL and MTL notwithstanding, and even with those my understanding of the system is not detailed enough to evaluate it’s bearing on them. Assuming the loss to MTL can be directed attributed to first, the 0-15 PP and second, to Fleury’s game 3 gaffe that leads DeBoer to his third final where it would remainto be seen what if any negative impact his system would have on the series.
In closing, I lack sufficient information to assert DeBoer’s system categorically precludes winning a Cup. I treat the PP apart from the system, not even a subset of it, and believe there may be cause to replace DeBoer if it is not fixed. I would also like to know if the players do not like playing DeBoer’s system. If so it’s a problem.
Daryl
When I get time I will go back and read what you posted on NJD. But until then I will say this. You don’t completely rebuild a Cup contraction team, unless you are VGK. I’ll have to see what transactions were made from PDB first year at NJD and his second, but I do know there were not that many, especially compared to what VGK did in years 2 and 3.
Also, as for your comment on PDB not making adjustments, PDB himself said he wasn’t making adjustments when questioned. He said what they have been doing for them into the playoffs so why would they change. Players just need to execute. And if you watch them play, you see very little change in their schemes.
Howard
I’m not going to contend with Pete on here anyone Daryl because he doesn’t comprehend others’ posts and I truly think he’s daft.
Richie-Rich
If the Kings go 1-3, or 2-2 over there remaining 4 games we have a shot.
At 0-4, Kings stay at 92 pts, VGK will need 5pts in their remaining 5 games
At 0-3-1 Kings 93 pts, VGK will need 6pts in their remaining 5 games
At 1-3, Kings 94 pts, VGK will need 7pts in their remaining 5 games
At 1-2-1 Kings 95 pts, VGK will need 8 pts in their remaining 5 games
At 2-2, Kings 96 pts, VGK will need 9pts in their remaining 5 games
At 2-1-1 Kings 97 pts, VGK will need 10 pts in their remaining 5 games
At 3-1 Kings 98 pts, VGK eliminated
The odds are very very slim.
Pistol Pete
Stars could be the best chance. Have a game in hand however EDM CGY and us. SEA ANA ARI.
Pistol Pete
Howard in your condescending response (and again if you reread my post I was responding to criticism, not necessarily yours) that they NEVER get men to the net 5 on 5 which IS absolutely not true. In just the first two periods there were four breakaways, 3 posts and probably at a minimum 50 bodies to the net. Forwards always seek the front of the net it’s a question of completing passes, getting a shot, winning stick battles and finishing. The claim VGK is always on the outside is just not accurate. Teams that score above average have higher skill at finishing basically, the goal averages at not different.
On the sole PP vs. Devils the forwards did not go to the side wall as you claim. Just one (Eichel if he’s on the ice) for an unchallenged position (there are only four defenders) from which to cycle the puck is standard PP process. The difference with a good PP is the movement and creativity. This was a good one with four shots including a post by Karlsson. The VGK PP should continue to improve with Eichel as the main distributor. In time he’ll build chemistry with Pacioretty, Stone and others and the performance will improve. Coaching will help as well.
You:
You know (you actually don’t) like how a good power play moves IN CYCLE?
Ready Peter?
Puck enters zone, where do forwards go IN CYCLE (means in sync with puck motion) for Vegas every time? THE SIDEWALL.
Dmen first set up shop at poin/blueline. Option 1 VGK uses far too much – as soon as puck is cycled to dman high, he shoots right away while forwards STILL CYCLING from SIDE WALL = no net presence and when there is, they crash looking for rebound (Good D teams will just bump you out most of the time), STILL OUT OF CYCLE.
Another option VGK uses a lot which I hate is the dman pinch up to either wing side while dropping one forward behind net, one forward to blueline (often times that other forward jumps in, leaving the odd man rush wide open.) This causes TOO MUCH sloppy stick battling and stale puck/cycle movement.
Daryl
PP…. A lot of us on here have been complaining for years about VGK not having net presence while in the offensive zone. Ken has talked about it. Jesse has talked about it. Everyone has talked about it. Maybe it’s not having aubergine like Perron or Neal, but it has been an issue. Stone will sunshine skate in front of the net but he doesn’t plant his feet there. We are not screening goalies. Crosby is one of the best at grabbing lose pucks from shots and scoring. What he does is what every VGK player tries to do…. hang around the outside and try to get to the loose pucks. They don’t have players making it difficult for the goalie
Howard
“PP…. A lot of us on here have been complaining for years about VGK not having net presence while in the offensive zone.”
This Peter person once again failed to comprehend any of my post on this. One needs to be an absolute ignorant tool to think I meant EVERY O-Zone possession is a cycle. Obviously, odd man rushes and clean break outs with speed aren’t cycles.
“While in the o-zone” obviously equates to “cyling the puck” and not a rush/break out.
So, what happened to the 2-1-2 (1-1D) forecheck under PDB? See, you understand;
4 lines of depth equate to wearing other teams out with constant forecheck pressure. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT YEAR 1 TEAM DID CONTINUALLY!
When a front office decides to add ‘stars’ (shiny toys), they tend to be LESS GRITTY and more ‘fancy pants’ and don’t put in the forecheck work.
Took Tampa years TO FINALLY FIGURE THIS OUT and play more like workmen than fancy panciers.
I like the simple strat of dmen shooting the corners. It forces defending team to play the puck rather than net stack
(See VGK failure to do this in bubble Stars series).
When defending team are forced to play the puck, it opens the middle IF, IF o zone team is relentless on forechecking. Do you ever see PDB teams do this?
2-1-2 forecheck is pretty simple. Actually I labeled it 2-1-2 (1-1D) where it should be 2-1-2 (2D-3F) Also paramount for forwards to commit to being “first forechecker” something VGK doesn’t execute these days either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbDgvSR2ePI
Part of reason VGK doesn’t do this much is lacking depth, and thats entirely on FO here not PDB. This style of play not only wears opponents out, it will wear YOUR TEAM out if lacking depth so..,
While I don’t think PDB will ever win a Cup with any team (mainly because he will never adjust), he’s not the worst coach there is.
When Dmen are CONSTANTLY taking point shots out high, VGK is wasting posession, they aren’t ‘working it.’
Vegas front office here is the main culprit. KM shows he’s absolutely ignorant on how to build a winning hockey team when he says “good isn’t great.” SINGLE SHINY “GREAT” STARS who eat up cap space WILL NOT WIN YOU A CUP. KM just has no idea, he’s clueless and should be fired.
If they got to keep PDB, I can live with that, but can’t with KM here. NOPE.
Ed. Oilers anyone? LACK DEPTH. McDavid and Drys-whatever (lol, can’t spell his name) are fancy pants’ers and both aren’t particualy good (PHYSICAL) forecheckers.
Stars don’t win Cups, a mix of 1 or 2 stars with COMMITTED forecheckers = 4 line depth and 4 lines of scoring potential DO WIN CUPS.
Vegas had that. could have had it again but the signing of Petro killed it = Could have grabbed 3 3rd/4th line ($3M per) DEPTH FORECHECKING FORWARDS for his cost = PISS POOR MANAGEMENT = KM.
Watch Tampa and other good teams play (ESP their 3rd and 4th lines) – pretty much what they and most good teams WITH DEPTH do
Now, what’s so hard to analyize why VGK year 1 team was so good? Year 2 team as well, but not as good as year 1. Really easy = COMMITTED FORECHECKING, ALL 4 LINES.
My final proof of keeping it simple is in fact winning hockey;
During 2018 year 1 Cup run, EVERY TEAM that VGK faced said, “we know what they are doing, they chip it in and go on forecheck”
OK, they knew what VGK was doing (ya, simple hockey) but only 1 TEAM (Caps) stopped it? THINK ABOUT THAT!
F all this Dmen pinching/shooting net from out high PDB crappy over complex arrogant system.
Daryl
I put together a short side by side of some stats from VGK first year to this year…
Year 1 Today
GF: 3.27 3.14
GA: 2.74 2.96
PP%: 21.37 16.43
PK%: 81.43 77.50
BLK: 1179 1234
Hits: 1767 1571
When you look at the hits, there were close to 200 fewer hits from year 1 to today. 200 is a lot. Approximately 700 hits came from Dmen in year 1 compared to only 500 hits today. In the first year, the top 3 hitters were Dmen. 2021, the top 2 hitters are Forwards.
The Forwards were practically identical on blocks and hits from year 1 to current.
Yes, I know injuries plays a part, especially on blocked shots, but not so much on the hits. This team isn’t as physical as it once was and I didn’t even put in stats for Reaves when he arrived.
vgk21
Here is the ripping from St Louis on the VGK woes.
=========================
Jeff Gordon—-
sports columnist for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.
This is not what the Vegas Golden Knights envisioned when they signed defenseman Alex Pietrangelo away from the Blues as a free agent.
This is not what they foresaw after acquiring wingers Max Pacioretty and Mark Stone, defenseman Alec Martinez, goaltender Robin Lehner, winger Evgenii Dadonov and center Jack Eichel with willy-nilly trades.
This is not what they sought while firing original coach Gerard Gallant and hiring Peter DeBoer.
For all of their aggressive wheeling and dealing — much of it senseless — the Golden Knights sit outside of the Western Conference playoff bracket with five games to play.
Meanwhile the Blues have already clinched another playoff berth with their cleverly retooled roster. General manager Doug Armstrong has remained aggressive, but, unlike his Vegas counterparts, he doesn’t lunge at every bright shiny object.
In the NHL’s salary cap world, spastic management can create a mess — as the Golden Knights proved.
“We got to win them all. It’s pretty simple, we got to win them all,” DeBoer said after a 3-2 loss to the New Jersey Devils Monday night. “Circumstances have put us in a situation here where we have no margin of error. That’s a tough way to play.”
Injuries have factored in the Golden Knights’ struggles. But deploying all their top players simultaneously during the regular season was never going to be possible because their payroll soared over the NHL’s $81.5 million salary cap.
Their goal was to perform cap gymnastics during the regular season, then roll a juggernaut into the postseason when the cap disappears.
“When they have the full squad, they’re the favorites to win the Stanley Cup,” noted Calgary Flames coach Darryl Sutter. “Other than the team that has the Stanley Cup, they’re the favorites. They have a $100 million payroll, so they have to figure out how to keep 20 (million) out.”
The Golden Knights did that by making liberal use of long-term injured reserve, where they could warehouse players without their salaries counting against the cap.
Trouble is, all the coming and going kept the Golden Knights from building a strong team game. So now they must pass the Kings, Stars or Predators to get into the playoffs.
And each of those teams controls its own fate.
“We have to find a way to win hockey games,” Golden Knights forward Jonathan Marchessault said. “For the first time, we’re going to need help from other teams. They’re going to need to lose. That’s just the way it is.”
After creating the blueprint for getting the absolute most out of an expansion draft, the Golden Knights seemed intoxicated by their initial success. Time after time they made a splashy move that defied logic.
Rather than make incremental upgrades to a team that won the Western Conference in Year 1, owner Bill Foley and executives George McPhee and Kelly McCrimmon took wild stabs.
Signing Pietrangelo was a classic example.
At that time the Golden Knights had Shea Theodore emerging as their top offensive defenseman. Martinez was already in place as a shutdown defender with a Stanley Cup pedigree. No. 3 defender Nate Schmidt was coming off another solid season with 31 points in 59 games.
To fit Pietrangelo’s $8.8 million average annual compensation under the cap, the Golden Knights traded away Schmidt and Paul Stastny, the team’s No. 2 center. They got a bit stronger on the blue line, but created a hole down the middle.
But this is how this team operates. It’s reminiscent of the free-wheeling Blues regime of Mike Shanahan, Jack Quinn and Ron Caron that finally spun totally out of control in the early 1990s.
The Golden Knights had Cup winner Marc-Andre Fleury in goal, but they added Lehner anyway … and later they gave away Fleury to make their cap numbers work.
They already had a ton invested in forwards Stone ($9.5 million per year), Pacioretty ($7 million), William Karlsson ($5.9 million), Marchessault ($5 million) and Reilly Smith ($5 million), but for some reason they added Dadonov at $5 million too.
And then they landed center Eichel and his $10 million salary, despite not having any cap space to speak of. Eichel stayed on LTIR while recovering from neck surgery, then other key players hopped on and off the list to keep the Golden Knights in compliance once he began playing.
The end result of that workaround was a roster that looks great on paper, but a team that is threatening to fall short on the ice. The Golden Knights face more tumult this summer when they must cut salary again and perhaps a coaching change if they miss the playoffs.
(They tried to dump Dadonov’s salary before the trade deadline, but it turned out he had no-trade protection. Oops!)
Meanwhile Armstrong moved on from the loss of Pietrangelo to assemble the most skilled team the Blues have iced in decades. Most of the team will be back next season, too, and the Blues’ competitive window should remain open for years.
Armstrong will remain proactive, as always, but he will leave the head-scratching maneuvers to the Golden Knights as that franchise veers off on whatever misadventure comes next.
Galdom
That was painful. I now feel worse. Grrr…
VGK Fan
vgk 21,
Thanks for the post!
Daryl
All that sounds about right….. And it says a lot
JoeInHendo
That St. Louis sports writer Jeff Gordon must read posts from this site, or he just knows what he’s talking about, or both lol! Placing the majority of the blame on management and coaching is spot on with what several of us have been writing. A GM’s job is to put together a cohesive roster, McCrimmon has failed to do that. A coach’s job is to make a roster play like a team, DeBoer has failed to do that. A goalie’s job is to stop easy pucks, Lehner has failed to do that. Of course blame is to be shared by everyone on VGK, but in pro hockey the 3 most critical components to success are at the GM, HC, and Goalie levels, which sadly seem to be VGK’s 3 biggest weaknesses. Mix in an atrocious PP (thank you Spott -sarcasm-) and the results are probably going to be a bunch of VGK personnel sitting at home watching the playoffs.
Howard
vgk21 – what myself and many here have been saying for 2 years now!
Writer of that piece is 1000% correct, which is why I don’t place the blame entirely on PDB (if he can ever learn how to make adjustments, he can win Cup, I just don’t think he ever will.), but MOST of the blame here goes on Vegas FRONT OFFICE.
Pistol Pete
“They have a $100 million payroll, so they have to figure out how to keep 20 (million) out.”
The cap hit is listed @ $92,108,077 so isn’t more like $10.5m? Anyways, there’s a lot of facts in this piece even if it is biased against a rival and the conclusions as to the fate of the VGK near term are debatable of course. Does Vegas have hockey media that rips rivals? Not that I know of. That one in Colorado, those people are brutal.
Galdom
Pistol Pete, Howard’s comments to you were indeed condescending and disrespectful calling you “a daft dude” but in my experience truly intelligent people generally don’t need to reinforce that by calling themselves smart or thinking they know all the answers or insulting other people calling them dumb or daft dude.
I enjoy Howard’s comments and opinions and agree with some of them. In fact I look forward to his posts save for the parts where he thinks someone lacks intelligence because they don’t see or agree with something that he sees.
I think Pete DeBoer is part of the problem here and like almost every coach he has a shelf life and his is expiring. And the minute that DeBoer is fired he will probably be hired by another organization because he has a history of winning in this league. I don’t think the game is quite as simple as Howard says it is. I also don’t think that Howard likes when you correctly point out that the power play that DeBoer coached in San Jose was very successful because that pokes holes in his theory. Pistol Pete, good for you for pointing that out and basically “peeling the layers off the onion” and trying to get to the bottom of this. I think that’s a sign of intelligence.
Although I can’t know for sure I do assume that William Foley must be a bright guy. I don’t think a self-made billionaire has been fooled or had the wool pulled over his eyes by George McPhee and Kelly McCrimmon. It’s been a terrible year but why do people keep forgetting what’s happened the previous four years. I’ve gone over the expansion draft and teams unprotected lists many times over and the management team did an absolute masterful job at the expansion draft. I don’t know how they did it but virtually every player they selected was the right one. Not the work of idiots.
This organization now is at a bit of a cross roads. What’s worked in the past won’t work now. Different dynamics, reduced salary cap space. I am hopeful that they can adapt and we can retool a bit. Next year could be a lean year as well.
I am curious to see what this team would do with a new coach. If perhaps some things like the special teams drastically improve that will play into Howard’s and other posters theories.
The one theory I can’t really agree with is the injury thing. I can’t see DeBoer’s coaching style causing a team to have a massive increase in injuries. If there is an over emphasis in shot blocking and perhaps every player is breaking their fingers, hands, feet blocking pucks that would be a thing. I think Wild Bill broke his foot and Pietrangelo hurt his hand getting hit with pucks. I don’t know if they were trying to block shots. I highly doubt that Pietrangelo would try to catch a slap shot with his hand. I don’t think there is anything in DeBoers coaching system that caused Martinez to take a skate to the face. I think injuries are usually due to bad luck or the body breaking down naturally. If Mark Stone’s back is giving out then perhaps the same thing would’ve happened if he were in Ottawa.
Pistol Pete, we don’t share the same optimism in regards to the VGK’s chance of making the playoffs. I know you are hanging on and haven’t given up but I am done for this year. For me it is OVER, I didn’t even scoreboard watch yesterday.
This is my last post of the year, I am saddened and disappointed by this season. At the beginning of the season I didn’t foresee any kind of possibility that we would not be in the postseason.
Thank you Ken for your hard work and providing this forum for us to engage, have dialogue and cheer on our Golden Knights. Thanks to all of you for your posts and rebuttals to mine. 95% of the time the discussions were civil and interesting. As for the 5% of the time that the conversations went in the wrong direction, shit happens, but I know I can do better.
Go Knights Go!
Howard
Galdom – Pete is daft because his rebuttals absolutely fail to pay attention what I’m saying and to be quite honest, anyone who says “I’m happy with a politician” is in my strongest opinion, A DUMMY.
People are entitled to their own opinions, I don’t need people to agree with me. I ask that they actually understand what I’m posting and Pete clearly doesn’t.
If someone gets hurt or insulted from an internet board, they need to seriously self-assess and man/woman up.
Pistol Pete
“People are entitled to their own opinions, I don’t need people to agree with me. I ask that they actually understand what I’m posting and Pete clearly doesn’t.”
That’s copping out. You appear unable to counter my points/rebuttals. That’s the bottom line. Up to now I have won the debate. If you want to continue point by point I’m game. Cut and paste and we’ll continue. Desisting = conceding. Insults don’t win debates. Have I insulted you up to this point– behind cover of the internet? Who is the man here?
Pistol Pete
“Pistol Pete, Howard’s comments to you were indeed condescending and disrespectful calling you “a daft dude” but in my experience truly intelligent people generally don’t need to reinforce that by calling themselves smart or thinking they know all the answers or insulting other people calling them dumb or daft dude.”
Thank you Galdom.
I don’t doubt Howard is bright it’s just that it does tell one something about one’s character when one resorts to insulting someone they don’t know behind cover of the internet. Obviously he was offended and became defensive when I challenged his anti-DeBoer system position. He may have taken offense to being referred to as an armchair analyst but I tried to make it clear that we all are myself included. I thought I made some good points (especially the strong possibility the DeBoer system per se did not lose the MTL series—it was the 0-15 PP and the Fleury game 3 gaffe) and was gracious in acknowledging that I found his position worthy of consideration. I won’t result to childish insults. I’m more than happy to continue the debate as I told him below and if he doesn’t it’s the same as him conceding defeat lol. Time to move on!
Galdom
Howard, hoping next season is better than this one. Also hoping that the coach is the biggest issue with this team and that your posts are accurate because it is much easier to replace the coach than all of the players. If the players are the issue then this is going to be a long and painful drought.
Have a great summer
Howard
U too Galdom.
I take same position Ken does. This roster has some talent and depth issues, notwithstanding cap issues. A new coach may get this group into postseaon as a 6th to 8th seed, but IMO, that’s about it. If Foley is so dumb to buy into more KM excuses/injury excuses, KM sticking around with further destroy this team. Sadly, I know KM types – they are arrogant and destructive to business.
IMO, Foley needs to fire AT LEAST Kelly M and get a GM who understands that depth wins, not shiny stars that eat your cap, hence eat your depth 🙂
Pistol Pete
I neglected to respond to the numerous points in your excellent posts. I wope up to Howard’s insults so I concentrated on your support for me part of your post. I may go back with some additional comments. Thanks again and best wishes!