Recap: The Golden Knights began the first of a back-to-back with a matchup in Arizona. Vegas came into Glendale to take care of business, fly back home and prepare for the Colorado Avalanche. The Coyotes committed two penalties in the first five minutes of the game but the Golden Knights couldn’t take advantage.
The middle period started in a scoreless tie but midway through William Carrier gave Vegas the 1-0 lead with his eighth of the season. A few minutes later the Coyotes evened the game. After 40 minutes the game was locked in a 1-1 tie.
Arizona broke the tie early in the final frame taking a 2-1 advantage. Vegas had several quality chances down the stretch but struggled to find the back of the net. The Coyotes wrapped up the game with a late empty-net goal. Shockingly, the Golden Knights dropped two points in Arizona.
The Golden Knights record drops to 29-19-4 falling to the Coyotes 3-1. Vegas will have a quick turnaround as they host the Colorado Avalanche tomorrow night. Puck drop is set for 7 PM. (Recap by Jason)
Analysis: In the 1st, the Golden Knights controlled the game but were unable to stick a puck past Wedgewood. But, things turned in the 2nd, and despite scoring first, they were outworked by the Coyotes. Arizona earned themselves a couple of goals and the Golden Knights got more and more frustrated. In the end, it’s a pathetic loss on the road against the league’s worst team. (Recap by Ken)
Upcoming stories from the Vegas Golden Knights vs. Arizona Coyotes at Gila River Arena.
- Twitter Q&A recap
Ken’s Three VGK Stars
*** Laurent Brossoit
** William Carrier
* Reilly Smith
Yikes
— SinBin.vegas (@SinBinVegas) February 26, 2022
With the game closing at -280, this is the second worst loss based on moneylines in the Pete DeBoer era.
The worst is a 4-1 loss to LA on March 1st, 2020. VGK were -340, riding an 8 game winning streak coming into that game.
— SinBin.vegas (@SinBinVegas) February 26, 2022
"We've got to stick some of those in the net. When you get 2-on-1's, when you get breakaways, when you get a 3-on-1, you've got execute. It's that time of year." -DeBoer
— SinBin.vegas (@SinBinVegas) February 26, 2022
More struggles defensively with VGK's top line is out there.
— SinBin.vegas (@SinBinVegas) February 26, 2022
DL
HOUSTON, WE HAVE A PROBLEM!!!
George L.
We haven’t been a team all season. We’re an assemblage of players. We have a major Front Office problem.
You can buy all the players in the world and not buy a team.
Also, this group of players is wrong group for DeBoer.
DMR
I think I agree with you. Too many injuries, too many different groupings of players…no cohesiveness.
Richie-Rich
ARI 3 VGK 1 This is another example of a team flailing and unable to get any chemistry. The strategy in the defensive zone is …. well it just sucks…..
I get the sense that if the Walrus was in net this game would have been 6 or 7 to 1.
VGK Stars
#3 Whitecloud +1 with an Assist
#2 Carrier Goal and most shots on goal by any Forward
#1 Brossoit played awesome in net keeping VGK in it
This team was horrible on the back check again allowing too much space and getting out muscled by the Coyotes.
Not a serious playoff contender.
VGK fan
Totally agree on everything except the comments on the third star.
Henderson One
Ken, I was at the game in Glendale. You saw a different game than I saw. The team I saw had no passion the entire game, had no team chemistry and is NOT a Stanley Cup contender and not a sure bet for the playoffs. When the season is at stake and every game and victory counts you would expect this team to bring it. They did not. And where was the Ten Million Dollar man? The game is not how good you skate or how fast you skate, it is about putting it in the net.
At this stage a lot rests on the shoulders of PDB and he is failing. If they do not make the playoffs with this payroll he is gone.
One of the worst VGK performances I have witnessed against a very poor team.
Richie-Rich
This year, so far?
Give Carrier a pay raise, cut some overpaid fat and put the C on #28!
THE hockey GOD
H one, I saw the same thing, I blame it on NHL scheduling fiasco, AZ was firing on all cylinders do to fact that 1) relatively healthy 2) playing more frequently at high level of competition.
Get back to me in March when things start to pick up.
Galdom
Colorado is gonna destroy them!!!
THE hockey GOD
colorado is coming in , off long road trip
stay tuned, and likely their best player may be OUT
Pistol Pete
If it make anyone feel better lol ARI beat COL at COL 3-2 in a SO earlier this month.
Hopefully this loss will light the flame, one that will burn the remainder of the season.
Richie-Rich
I knew PP would come in with his positive spin on what has become a season of frustration for the fans. Pointing to Colorado as an example? You should check the standings and take a look at the difference in goals for and goals against between the two clubs before making such outrageous comparisons between Colorado and Vegas.
Right now, Vegas isn’t even in the same league performance-wise with Colorado.
Colorado 38 wins and +62
Vegas 29 wins and +17 and in CAP HELL with underperforming players.
At least one of these guys should be fired now, maybe two of them. If things don’t turn around by seasons end? Bye bye DeBoering.
Assistant Coach Steve Spott
Assistant Coach Ryan Craig
Assistant Coach Ryan McGill
Assistant Coach Misha Donskov
Daryl
I’d start with PDB and let hibtake Spott with him
Richie-Rich
Tonight’s game vs Colorado will be very informative.
Daryl
I think VGK wins 3-2 and Eichel scores his 2nd goal
The big Zzzzz
Playing down to the opponents level never works for this team. I was at the game and they looked terrible from the puck drop, never really looking like they gave a flying f until about 5 minutes left in the game. Obviously their minds were on the Colorado game.
Was actually embarrassing to have had paid money to be there.
Truly pathetic effort.
knights fan in minny
the only good thing was carrier working his ass off all hustle and hard work on his goal
Richie-Rich
Yep, pay #28 what he is worth and put the C on his sweater!
knights fan in minny
damm right
VGK fan
You are absolutely correct!
knights fan in minny
what the hell happened to fragile 67
THE hockey GOD
see post on 67 below
Henderson One
While he still can score, he is injury prone and probably on the downside of his career. Last night he had a terrible first period and seemed to twist in awkward manner just before he left the ice.
LVsc
folks, this team is in serious danger of missing the playoffs now. after that putrid loss to the league’s worst team….and add to that the injury situation which leaves them an impotent patsy offensively, a perimeter pushover of Demko proportions.
rising Calgary is first, rising LA just pulled ahead of them. rising Edm is right on their tail, and so is Ana, and even rising Van is within 6 pts of them now. and there will be at least 4 teams, maybe 5 from the central division, so if the Vgk don’t finish at least 3rd in the Pacific, they may not even make the playoffs.
I expect to see some serious trade activity now, with the cap problems and winning problems…..because the fragile top 6 guys on this team cannot be counted on to show up often enough to make a concerted run. do you honestly see a long winning streak from this bunch that was on the ice last night? hell no
vgk21
I agree, and guys like Dadonov have got to go. He has no chemistry with the 2 top lines at all, and he has tailed off badly as the season winds down. His cap hit is a major impediment, both this season and next season too.
vgk21
Oh, and that VGK power play? You know, the one that drags the team down in so many ways? Just on that failure alone PDB and his buddy from SJ should be on the verge of pink slips.
Richie-Rich
I had predicted that the Kings would win the division this year, but I didn’t count on Calgary to be so good. I had Vegas finishing 3rd behind the Kings and Edmonton.
Now, the VGK also has Edmonton and Anaheim both right on the heels of Vegas.
I am revising my prediction today.
VGK will finish 4th or 5th in the Pacific and will miss the playoffs entirely! Both the Kings and the Ducks had better roster moves in the preseason than the Knights and it is showing.
the REAL TS..REALLY!
When you have to change the channel to avoid the inevitable, it is getting PRETTY BAD. Redemption tonight?? We ALL hope so.
Daryl
All I can say is WTF???
Maybe it’s just a case of looking past ARI to COL?
Richie-Rich
I am calling it now Daryl. No playoffs for the VGK this year and will finish no higher than 4th or 5th in the Pacific.
Daryl
Trade deadline will be interesting
knights fan in minny
trade deadline day better then christmas
Mike StG
I don’t know whether Vegas’s defensemen are supposed to shoot as much as they did last night but here’s an interesting comparison of Vegas and Colorado from the games they played yesterday.
Colorado
Total SOG (team) – 40
SOG by defense- 6
Vegas
Total SOG (team) – 44
SOG by defense – 20
What is wrong with that picture?
This has been a pattern of play for some time now (years, in fact) – defense driving offense, but not in the most effective way. The above doesn’t even factor in shot attempts (that were either blocked or missed the goal), the majority of which come from the D. Do all the Dmen have the green light to shoot any time, any place? This is a primary reason so many average opponents’ goalies look like Vezina finalists: easy shots from the blue line by players lobbing ‘high fly balls into centerfield’ (using a baseball analogy). Here is a specific example – Stephenson vs McNabb, summarizing their SOG this season:
Chandler 74 SOG, S% 17.4
Brayden 58 SOG, S% 3.4
Questions:
1) Why does McNabb, a career 3.7% shooter, take 8 shots for every 10
shots taken by Chandler, a 16% career shooter?
2) Why does Vegas so easily revert to a blue line or perimeter shot instead of cycling the puck and letting the forwards generate more offense?
3) Why are forwards just standing along the walls and not getting in front of the net or skating into the slot area to create seams and openings for passes to the middle for scoring chances, as opposed to just passing around the perimeter and behind the goal?
This is not picking on McNabb, it involves nearly all defensemen on the team. Hague takes ways too many ill advised shots that are blocked or miss the net, as does Theodore. Just getting it to the net is useless if there is no one net front to bang it home.
Eichel’s skill in zone entry and puck possession can help reduce the issue, and it’s obvious when he’s on the ice the D will tend to get the puck to him so he can drive play. But it may be that Chandler needs to move to 3C to help drive offense in the middle 6. And, as much as I like Patch it’s starting to look like Vegas needs to add a scoring winger. If Max’s issue is long term maybe they look at whether Giroux or Boeser are a solution on Eichel’s wing, plus Giroux plays center as well. Dadonov doesn’t fit on L1, and Patch looks like he’s going to be in & out probably for the rest of the season. So they may be able to put Max on LTIR to make room for a top 6 winger.
Also, I think they should look at putting Marchie on Eichel’s left wing whenever Patch is out. It’s a tough situation with some of their best wingers out of the lineup. But they need to find a dynamic forward to play with Eichel… soon.
Richie-Rich
Why do the Dmen take more shots? It is the DeBoering strategy. He’s looking for rebounds because the power play SUCKS and these overpaid stars have zero chemistry.
Start firing some coaches! We’ve called for that for a while now.
A MESSAGE NEEDS TO BE SENT – NOW
Pistol Pete
Good post Mike StG. Thanks for the effort you took in putting that together. Appreciate your insights. Always nice to learn something.
Blitz
Excellent observations Mike. I thought it interesting in last nights broadcast, Darren Eliot, made a color comment, during the PP, something like “why is the dman taking that quick shot just to get a puck towards the net, when he could have passed it to the open forward for a high quality chance”. I may have butchered what he actually said, but it was long those lines. He was just commenting on some of the issues of what’s going on with the PP. That was telling to me, again I am not a XO’s guy, that there is this weird defense shoot mentality even if its not a man in front, higher quality situation.
Mike StG
Blitz, that’s exactly my point. I think this is what JFresh was talking about when he wrote an article about 2 yrs ago on why Vegas’ scoring appeared to decline the more Shea Theodore activated into the offense.
It minimizes the roles and impact of forwards, instead of complementing them. I really think Vegas needs to dial back the defense activating into the offense and allow the forwards to play with more continuity. Perhaps there previously wasn’t a sufficient level of skill in the forward group for that to be successful. But their front end now, WHEN HEALTHY, has more than enough talent to drive offense on at least 3 of the 4 lines.
They have Dmen with good offensive skills, but not with Brent Burns/Erik Karlsson-level elite scoring and passing ability. And they don’t have Joe Pavelski standing in front of the net. They need to adjust their style of play to better fit the skills on their roster.
Blitz
Well I kind of saw that game coming. Vegas has almost zero continuity. Maybe its injuries, maybe its coaches, maybe its the FO and getting rid of character players and/or skilled players. Maybe its the age and mix match of the current players. Regardless, it is here now and make any excuse you want, this team doesn’t look good and has no identity. Are they good defensive team and will beat you on transition? Are they great neutral zone team? Are they a great special teams team? Great offensive team? Fast team? Punishing team? I saw “not really” to all the above. Just a year ago you could say what they are. This year I have no clue.
What is up with the power play? I am not talking about it not scoring, that is an easy stat to look at. I am talking about the fact it doesn’t look anything like other teams power plays. Even AZ has a flow to the PP. Passes back and forth, people in space, high quality attempts. Even if they don’t score you see “the man advantage”. Vegas looks like they are a man down and are never in space besides the points. I am not an XO’s guy with hockey and I just don’t understand it, but I see with other good AND bad teams they at least look like they have a man advantage and extra ice to work with. It’s clear Eichel is the best PP guy on this team, the dude can stick handle in a phone booth and has instinct for the great pass, but even his elite skills are no match for whatever the fuck is going on with everyone else. I don’t understand it.
Richie-Rich
VGK YEAR 1 TEAM WOULD TOTALLY DISMANTLE THE CURRENT EDITION. Why?
They gave a fuck.
Daryl
Exactly
Blitz
While I agree the chemistry of the year one team was damn near magical, they were also a better team top to bottom, not just the top. They didn’t have “big names” other than MAF, but they had a team of better than expected “unknowns” and other known middle tier players. I will continue to say it. A team built top to bottom of middle tier/middle cap players is a way better situation than top heavy team of *polar opposite* super stars and a budget bottom of players playing to bottom expectations.
Hdbiker7851
Your post about yr 1 and the last statement says it all. Please last man out turn off the lights – this party is over – they are not a team in any stretch of imagination and IF they even make the play off, which l doubt, they will fold like a cheap suit. Sad state of affairs. Excuse. – 1 hr plane rid was taxing and wore them outLOL
THE hockey GOD
replying to biker
four hour plane ride to Regina
THE hockey GOD
RED ALERT
RED ALERT
paging Dr HOWARD dr FINE dr HOWARD
report to the ER
PAGING dr HOward dr FINE dr HOWARD
report to the ER
Dr ” Moe Howard” in ER. ” Who are all these patients”?
Nurse Goodbody “There is no 23. no 90, no 61, no 67, no 26. no 81”
Dr Moe Howard “It looks like they was all hit by a typhoony’
Dr Curly Howard ” Ty who” (bing bang boom bang).
Dr Fine to Dr Moe Howard “shall we operate ?”
Dr Moe Howard ” First we’s got to stop the hemagraghy”.
Dr Curly ” The hema who ? (bing, bang, boom, bing bang”
Dr Moe “listen up mutton head, the bleeding’!! Nurse Goodbody, we need cotton”.
Nurse Goodbody ” Cotton, doctor?”
All three doctors ‘COTTON, COTTON, more COTTON !
COTTON, that the solution, more cotton
Dr Moe Howard
Richie-Rich
Let the excuses FLY!
NO TEAM CHEMISTRY
DESTROYED IT
OVERPAID, UNDER PERFORMING
TOO INJURY PRONE
POOR COACHING
BAD MOVES
CAP HELL
NOT IMPROVING
FOLEY HAS TO BE GETTING PISSED
Daryl
Sounds like a lot of excuses to me… You might have a point against a team like COL, which I’m sure you will use again if VGK loses tonight, but this was against ARI. There is no chemistry among players who have played together for awhile. Let me guess, they need another year for the chemistry to come?
Richie-Rich
Perspective:
Vegas Golden Knights: $92,544,939
Arizona Coyote CAP Hit: $74,591,118
CAP LIMIT: $81,463,272 – means the Golden Knights has to keep $11,000,000 on LTIR (right now that is Stone & Martinez)
Last night, William Carrier scored the only goal and had the most shots on goal (6). A 4th line winger, he makes $1.4million.
THE hockey GOD
come up with a better perspective, compare the VGK Salaries versus Yotes salaries for those who played
last night, and you will come up with different numbers. Apples to apples. And don’t include 26 and 67 because they only played 1/3rd of game, or cut there salaries by 1/3rd.
Daryl
26 and 67 were there long enough to make a difference but they didn’t. Maybe the FO shouldn’t be paying so much money on older injury prone guys?
Richie-Rich
PP-
So, how many games will it take for Eichel to begin exerting his dominance, leadership and game changing skills? William Carrier out hustled every one of the Golden Knight forwards last night against one of the worst teams in the league, had the most shots on goal and scored the only goal. He does not get pushed off the puck like the rest of the forwards. At $1.4 million he is a bargain. Move him on up to the top line!
Pistol Pete
If Patch is out I’m game to try Carrier in his place.
knights fan in minny
yes sir you are right i love the blue collar lunch pail guys
THE hockey GOD
interesting stat relayed by the ari zonie (in SoCal we call people from
arizona , “zonies”, because during the summer they tend to migrate
from the inner lands , scorched with heat, and park their lilly white
butts in nearest beach from June to beginning of school year..
Anyway they said the VGK were 25th in league in giving up high quality scoring chances.
Not good
PS No. 9 still mostly missing in action, the medical staff were seen administering smelling salts in the owners box after the game.
The injury trend continues as 67 and 26 were knocked out of the game, 26 was clobbered in first period by the boards. Sandwiched between two yotes. I don’t know what happened to 67, I think he may have blocked a shot ? Neither one of them were doing much anyway. Time to call up the reserves. Every man between age of 18 and 60 will be reporting for active duty !!
THE hockey GOD
Jesse Granger
@JesseGranger_
·
12h
Max Pacioretty’s skate got clipped by a Coyotes player, then again by a different player seconds later, and he left the ice gingerly in the second period. He hasn’t taken a shift since.
Pistol Pete
We’ve been hearing a lot about lack of chemistry including from some pretty high levels. Quite a lot of that would dissipate with a close to healthy roster especially Stone and Pacioretty—always tough to be missing your top two wingers or to have one or both playing injured. I think probably having Martinez back would help also.
Daryl
While that might be true, no guarantees, they would still be shuffling lines around with the arrival of Eichel…. So it’s only assumption things would be different with everyone back
THE hockey GOD
i agree, even a mutton head can see that have 999999 line combinations with 40 different personnel isn’t going to give you anywhere need a cohesive, chemically bound team. Chalk it up to year of covid and injury. Move on. And fans should stop their incessant, clueless,, or as that one writer put it ‘unsophesticated” whining.
Shit happens, deal with ti.
Daryl
What’s the excuse on the defensive end where there hasn’t been a lot of pair shuffling? And as a whole, even when they were mostly healthy, there wasn’t a cohesiveness among them
Keep the excuses coming
THE hockey GOD
d men always need forwards support, it’s a five man unit all working on same page, people living in Mayberry RFD don’t get much.
Daryl
Nice excuse. But Dmen don’t need Forwards when it comes to getting beat along the boards, or beat to loose pucks, or bad passes, or missed assignments. As a whole, yes they all need each other, but they have individual responsibilities they are making mistakes on
LVsc
the best way that forwards can help their dmen is to do a good job of forechecking in the offensive zone, keep the puck 200 feet from their net, cycle the puck, and crash the net, force the opponents to sag to protect the house, which gives the vgk dmen more space at the offensive blue line
Pistol Pete
I’ll cheerlead and say the VGK can make a stand tonight.
Pistol Pete
Eichel’s sniping still rusty.
Pistol Pete
All season the captain has either been out injured or playing @ less than 100%. That has definitely been impactful.
Pistol Pete
KM claimed Stone’s condition showed up in the playoffs and did not go away in the off season.
Daryl
Then that is on Stone and the coach as they should have dealt with that issue long before now
Hdbiker7851
Please P Pete – no more excuses – your die heart attitude has affected your brain’s clear thinking. I said all along despite what you wanted to believe one 10 mill addition wouldn’t and hasn’t changed the situation. No l am not singling him out – this group of individuals is not a team and will probably not make the playoffs. Be thankful your not a season ticket holder of expensive seats
THE hockey GOD
don’t look now, but LA just passed VGK
in standing
one team is trending up
and
other one trending down.
no respite in sight, VGK are reeling- capt. obvious
Galdom
Hey Pistol Pete, good on you for remaining positive, we need that in this world.
However, unfortunately I can not do the same. I am extremely concerned. I can’t blame the players lack of preparedness, passion and physicality on DeBoer. They need to look themselves in the mirror and perform as professionals. I am not against firing DeBoer immediately either as the old saying goes, “you can fire the coach but can’t fire the whole team.” This season is too important in regards to our cap situation and how the team will look much differently next year. If they don’t get going soon then it’s time for a new voice even if it is an interim coach. Remember when Dallas replaced Jim Montgomery with Rick Bowness and they beat us and went all the way to the finals?
THE hockey GOD
any one blaming coaches for this stretch is a bit far fetched,then again the coaches are lowest player on staff and first to go.
Daryl
I guess no coach should ever get fired sine they aren’t the ones playing. Fact is, the HC is responsible for his assistants (Spott) and what happens on the ice
Mike StG
Latest from Dave Pagnotta on The Hot Stove this morning: Mark Stone is likely done for the year. The team is hoping they can be successful dealing with his injury without needing surgery, but any chance of that happening will require a lot of time off. Translation: He’s done for the year.
So…
Right wing options: Giroux, Boeser
Left wing options (in case Max’s injuries keep him out): Forsberg (if you believe the reports), Hagel, DeBrusk.
Personally, I think they also need to add a shutdown D. Their young D (Hague, Coghlan) are too inclined to shoot while being vulnerable on defense. Maybe Big Z (Chara), especially if Marty can’t make it back this year.
The way it looks to me, if they want to have any chance this year they’ll need to bite the bullet, give up some picks/prospects, and make some trades for rentals. Unless they plan on buying out Patch in the off-season they probably can’t take on any new contracts with term.
Daryl
I’m huge on a defensive blueliners… There is enough firepower from Dmen right now but we need a big, tough guy who can clear the crease and protect the goalie
Mike StG
Chara would be an option. Big, plays PK, put him on 3rd pair, league min salary.
Would need to be a low cost option, because they probably need to get scoring help up front to replace Stone, possibly Patch, and Patrick. Dadonov and Janmark have pretty much been duds as far as scoring contributions, so playing them up the roster seems futile.
Daryl
I don’t like Chara at all, mostly because he is from Boston. But for a 1yr low cost player I think I could live with it
Mike StG
You could learn to love Big Z if he helps bring the cup to Vegas.
knights fan in minny
yes indeed
Galdom
I hope Stone will be back. David Pagnotta is not reliable so that’s a good thing.
Mike StG
Pagnotta is extremely reliable, esp when it comes to VGK news. That’s why I quoted him. Remember in mid 2020 when TFP reported that Lehner had agreed to a deal with Vegas? VGK denied it, Lehner denied it. Then we later find out a deal was indeed signed in March 2020 – 5×5. TFP was the only media reporting it, and they were spot on.
I had mentioned this possibility in early posts when Stone started missing games and the incident occurred where he barely made it off the ice. That what he was dealing with appeared serious and hopefully wouldn’t end his season and possibly require surgery. Sounds like that is the unfortunate likelihood.
So, what does the team do if they want a chance to make a run in the postseason without Stone, and possibly also without Patch & Marty? They’ll probably need to trade for some rentals, but it will cost them. I just hope they don’t give up Brendan Brisson, who I think will be a legit top 6 winger NHL-ready in 2-3 years.
THE hockey GOD
New York Post
@nypost
6h
Majority of Americans say Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Trump were president
the REAL TS..REALLY!
Thg: can we all PLEASE keep the POLITICS off this HOCKEY site? We all have different political views, but this is NOT the place for it. Please.
knights fan in minny
so true joe blunder is weak open the damm pipe line
Blitz
1000%
THE hockey GOD
where’ Timmy ???
from dirt troit ?
THE hockey GOD
NEWSFLASH
BREAKING (this is rich)
Domink Hasek is calling out crazy Ivan Ovechkin of the CaPs for his back a$$ed, non confrontational comments on Putin.
Calling for NHL to suspend him (you all know that idiot Bettman won’t do a thing,
now if it was a BLM issue or socialist issue he would be first standing in line)
Dominik Hasek
What!? Not only an alibist, a chicken shit, but also a liar! Every adult in Europe knows well, that Putin is a mad killer and that Russia is waging an offensive war against the free country and its people. The NHL must immediately suspend contracts(contin)
Henderson One
Remember how Stone choked again in the playoffs!
Frank
This team needs to get it together before it’s too late. This season and the first season should prove money can’t buy a team. Great teams are better than the sum of their parts. Connor McDavid may have been the best in the league for the last few seasons… Why no Cup appearances????… doesn’t have a team behind him. Why did VGK lose to MTL last season… better team play by MTL. Still holding out on Eichel… but man, he does not look the same so far….. This and injuries bode very badly for VGK down the stretch…..